鲍勃·迪伦得诺奖

鲍勃·迪伦得诺奖

12月10日，诺贝尔奖颁奖典礼将在瑞典斯德哥尔摩举行，特立独行的鲍勃·迪伦多半不会出席。此前的10月13日，2016年诺贝尔文学奖揭晓，这位美国民谣艺术家荣获该奖项。文学奖结果出人意料，这是诺贝尔文学奖第一次颁给词曲创作人。对于迪伦获奖，各方反应不一。

瑞典文学院的理由是，迪伦“在美国歌曲的伟大传统里，创造了新的诗意表现手法”，该学院成员韦斯特贝里说，迪伦“可能是最伟大的在世诗人”。而苏格兰小说家韦尔什则表示：“我是迪伦的粉丝，但音乐与文学截然不同，我感到愤怒。”瑞典文化作家斯文松则称，瑞典文学院“为取悦群众而颁奖给迪伦” 。

鲍勃·迪伦生于1941年，原名罗伯特·艾伦·齐默曼(Robert Allen Zimmerman)，是一位美国唱作人、艺术家和作家。从1961年发布首张专辑至今，迪伦在流行音乐界和文化界起到的影响已超过50年。他的代表歌曲是《答案在风中飘扬》(Blowing' in the Wind)、《时代在变》(The Times They Are a-Changing)、《像一块滚石》（Like A Rolling Stone）、《荒芜之街》（Desolation Row）等。

本期“国际朋友说”，我们来到一八九八咖啡馆，几个年轻的国际朋友就这个热门话题发表观点。线下讨论的同时，我们也首次进行了网络直播尝试，并与埃及的嘉宾进行了国际连线。

On December 10th, the Nobel Prize Ceremony is going to be held in Stockholm, Sweden, and, most likely, the unique laureate, Bob Dylan, will not be attending. Previously, on October 13th, the list of 2016 Nobel Literature Prize laureates was announced, and the American folk singer Bob Dylan was honorably awarded the Nobel Literature Prize. This announcement was shocking for many, as this is the first time in the history when the Literature Prize goes to a song writer. And the opinions vary, as to whether Bob Dylan deserves the award.

The Sweden Academy explained, Bob Dylan has “invented a new way of poetic expression in the great American song tradition”, Westerberg, a member of the Academy, said, "Dylan is the greatest poet alive.”However, the Scottish novelist Welsh pointed out: “I am a fan of Bob Dylan, but music and literature are two different things, I am disappointed.” The Swedish culture writer Svenson said, “the Sweden Academy gave the Prize to Dylan as a joke”.

Bob Dylan, an American singer-songwriter, artist and writer, was born in 1941. Dylan’s real name is Robert Allen Zimmerman. From his first album, issued in 1961, Dylan’s star has shined for more than 50 years. His most representative songs include “Blowing in the Wind”, “The Times They Are a-Changing”,“Like A Rolling Stone”, “Desolation Row” and others.

This time “World Speaking” was staged in “1898” café, with a number of guests from different countries, all coming to express their opinion on this hot topic. The discussion was recorded in a livestreaming format, and via Internet we connected with our friend, who’s currently in Egypt.

鲍勃·迪伦的歌词很入心

苏莉：我最近看到的评论是，“人们选迪伦做诺奖得主，就像选川普当选总统一样。”大家都没有想到。

主持人：这就有点像莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥（Leonardo DiCaprio），中国观众都叫他小李子，小李子也是陪跑奥斯卡多年，终于修成正果。吴求对迪伦得奖怎么看？

吴求：我是玩音乐的，一般我听一首歌曲，会特别关注音乐细节，就音乐而言，迪伦曲子的音乐细节是比较简单的。他得奖主要靠他的歌词，他写的歌词能引起很多人的共鸣，他的歌词很入心。

主持人：你说迪伦的曲子的音乐细节比较简单，这一点我也有同感。我前一段时间找《答案在风中飘扬》（Blowing in the wind）的伴奏，找不到，我就用吉他试了一下，发现也就4个和弦，于是自己动手编配了一个伴奏。那么，你从什么时候知道迪伦的？

吴求：我来自孟加拉国。1971年，我们脱离巴基斯坦而独立。据我所知，鲍勃·迪伦当年专门为孟加拉国举办过音乐会。所以我就对他挺好奇的，知道他是一个民谣歌手。因为我之前不是特别关注美式民谣，也就没有多关注他。后来因为诺贝尔奖，我就又多关注了他一下。我发现他的歌词是给予人希望的。比如《时代在变》（Times they are a-changin')，我特别喜欢这首歌。我有时会想，把迪伦的歌词用现在的流行音乐重新编配一下，会是什么样子？

Bob Dylan’s lyrics are heart capturing

Anastasia: Recently I saw a comment: As Trump was elected as President of the USA, Bob Dylan’s winning Nobel Literature Prize is also beyond our expection. No one expected either thing happening.

Host: It reminds me of Leonardo DiCaprio, who finally got his Oscar. The Chinese audience calls him “Little Li”. After so many years of being an Oscar nominee, “Little Li” made it after all. What does Shayer think about Bob Dylan’s award?

Shayer: I’m also doing music. Normally, when I listen to a song, I pay most attention to the tune. Bob Dylan’s music is very simple. The Nobel Prize was given to him because of people’s resonance with the lyrics in his songs. His lyrics are heart capturing.

Host: When you mentioned Dylans’ tunes are simple, I actually agreed with you. Not long ago I tried to find the accompaniment to his song “Blowing in the wind” online, and couldn’t. Then I took the guitar and found out, it’s only four chords, so I just made the music accompaniment myself. By the way, when did you fi rst learn about Dylan?

Shayer: I come from Bangladesh. In 1971 we gained independence from Pakistan. As far as I know, Bob Dylan organized a concert specially for Bangladesh. That’s why I was deeply in-terested in him, I knew he was a folk singer. Because I didn’t really listen to American-style folk music, I didn’t know much about his music. But recently, after this announcement about the Nobel Prize, I started following him. I discovered, his song lyrics give hope to people. For example, “Times they are a-changing”. I really like this song. Sometimes I would think, what could come out if you combine Dylan’s song lyrics with the modern music.

直播截图

主持人：你说他的歌是给人希望的。你觉得还有哪些歌可以体现这一点？

吴求：这段时间听的，《物是人非》（Things have changed），还有《别再想了,没事的》（Don’t think twice, It’s all right）。

主持人：吴求之前介绍过，他是“One Guitar”乐队以及“灵音乐队”成员，自己也有不少的原创作品。你在写歌的时候最初的动机是什么？

吴求：我就是凭当时的感受，特别高兴的时候没人分享，孤单、痛苦的时候没人分享，就和歌词分享。

苏莉：后来有自己的观众吗？

吴求：其实，粉丝就是校园里的同学们。

主持人：吴求刚才说的他写歌的动机，让我想起迪伦的一段话，我不久前买了迪伦的书《编年史》（CHRONICLES: volume one），这是迪伦的回忆录，也译为《像一块滚石》，在这本书的54页，迪伦这样写道：“我说不出是什么时候开始写歌的，但是要定义我感受世界的方式，除了民谣歌词，我再也找不到能与之相提并论的，或者能赶得上它一半的事物了。”这句话和吴求刚才的说法非常像，在迪伦看来，写歌是一种表达方式，是感受世界的方式。

Host: Ok, so you say his songs give hope to people. What his other songs, in your opinion, express this attitude?

Shayer: I recently listened to “Things have changed”, and also “Don’t think twice, it’s alright”.

Host: Shayer previously mentioned, he is a “One Guitar” and“Soul Music” band player, and he himself has written a lot of songs. When you write a song, what is your motivation?

Shayer: I go with the feeling. When I’m happy and have no one around, or when I feel lonely and sad, and again, have no one around me, then I express my feelings in the lyrics.

Anastasia: Do you have followers?

Shayer: Actually, my fans are my university classmates.

Host: When Shayer talked about his motivation to lyric writing, it reminded me of one quote by Dylan. I just bought his book, “Chronicles: volume one”, which is his memoirs, also translated as “Like a Rolling Stone”. On page 54 he writes: “I won’t say when I started writing songs, but when defi ning the way through which I came to feel the world, then it would be folk lyrics, as I don’t know anything that can compare with them, or at least something half as good as them”. This saying is very close in meaning to what Shayer has just mentioned. For Bob Dylan, song writing is a way of self-expression, the way to feel the world.

Bob Dylan lyrics are as beautiful as poems

Anastasia: Let’s speak with Reem, who is now in Egypt, about Bob Dylan and the Nobel Literature Prize. Do you think he is deserving of the award?

Reem: I am neutral towards Bob Dylan winning the award. I hadn’t heard his songs before and started following him since hearing the news about him receiving the Nobel Prize. But after I got more familiar with his songs, I became his fan. I am especially fond of his “Blowing in the wind” and “Knocking on heaven’s door”. They are so peaceful, so beautiful. Even though the melody is quite simple and not so appealing, the main focus is on lyrics. Many outstanding lyrics were created by him in his youth, in his twenties. But they still can find their place in our modern society, and it’s another reason why his lyrics are so amazing.

Host: Reem took part in the 8th meeting of ‘World Speaking”where we discussed “The book that brought China closer to me”. Last time Reem introduced the heroic yet romantic“Mao Zedong Poetry” book. As we see, Reem is fond of literature, and also very well educated about poetry. From your point of view, what makes Bob Dylan’s lyrics stand out?

Reem: Many literature lovers would say, a well-written piece will give you a new inspiration every time you read it. I think Bob Dylan’s lyrics fall under this category. I really appreciate poems with an intricate meaning, with rich content. You can fi nd it in his works, that’s why they sparked my interest.

Host: Let’s now hear the opinion of Dylan’s compatriot, Lila, who’s also from the USA.

Lila: I’m really happy for Bob Dylan that he got this award. Bob Dylan, through his songs, was able to attract the whole world, it’s amazing. Even though we both are from the USA, I didn’t listen much to his songs. He is the same generation with my dad. I know that my dad would sometimes listen to his songs. My favourite is “Make you feel my love”. This song is especially beautiful. I was so surprised to fi nd out, right after he got this prize, that this song was composed by him, because I heard the Adele versions many times, and I believed it was she who wrote it. I think after Bob Dylan gets his award, the next awardee will be Haruki Murakami. I personally love his novels.

鲍勃·迪伦歌词有诗歌美

苏莉：我们请目前还在开罗的可云，通过国际连线，谈谈你对迪伦获得诺贝尔文学奖的看法。你觉得他应该得奖吗？

沙可云：我对迪伦获得诺奖持中立态度，老实说，我之前没有听说过他，我完全是迪伦获奖之后才关注他的。不过关注他之后，我成为了他的粉丝。我特别喜欢《答案在风中飘扬》（Blowin’ in the Wind）和《敲开天堂的门》（Knockin' on heaven's door），感觉很温馨，词特别美。虽然曲子不是特别复杂，不是特别有吸引力，重点是词特别美。他很多经典的词都是很年轻的时候写的，估计也就是二十几岁，但是特别适合我们现代社会，这也是我觉得他的歌词有诗歌美的原因之一吧。

主持人：可云上次参加了我们第8期的国际朋友说“带我认识中国的一本书”，当时可云谈到的是豪迈又浪漫的《毛主席诗词》，可以看得出来，可云是一个对文学、对诗歌有修养和造诣的人，从文学欣赏的角度，你觉得迪伦的词有什么样的特点？

沙可云：很多文学爱好者会觉得，好的文章是每一次读都会有新的启发。我觉得迪伦的词就是如此。我特别喜欢意义非凡、富有内涵的诗词，在他的作品创作中可以找到这一点，所以他的作品已经吸引我了。

主持人：我们来看一下鲍勃·迪伦的同胞，来自美国的星悦发来的场外反馈。

星悦：迪伦得到诺贝尔文学奖，我很为他高兴。他能通过自己的歌影响全球的听众，很了不起。虽然他是我的同胞，不过我不怎么听他的歌，他是我父母那年代的歌手，我知道我父母有时候会听他的歌。我最喜欢的是《让你感受我的爱》（Make You Feel My Love），这首歌特别好听。我很惊讶，因为我是在他获奖之后才知道这首歌是他写的，因为我一直听阿黛尔（Adele）的版本。我本来以为是她写的。我觉得鲍勃·迪伦得奖之后，日本作家村上春树应该也不远了。有时候世界就是这样的，得多试几次才能成功。我个人还挺喜欢村上春树的小说。

先有歌词还是先有旋律？

主持人：我自己也写歌，我一般是先写旋律，再填歌词，最后再编曲配器。我记得崔健说过，“旋律是歌词的最好的老师。”但迪伦不同，他都是先写词，或者说他先写了一首诗，然后再去那个民谣的曲库里面找一个旋律来跟他的诗匹配。你写歌的时候，是先写歌词，还是先写旋律？

What comes fi rst: lyrics or melody?

Host: I also write songs. Usually I compose music first, then go to lyrics and then the instrument accompaniment. I remember Cui Jian once said: “Melody is the best teacher for lyrics”. But it’s different with Bob Dylan. He makes the lyrics fi rst, or a poem, and then in the assortment of folk music finds the one that matches with the lyrics. When you write your music, what do you compose fi rst: lyrics or music?

Shayer: When I was just starting, I composed both melody and lyrics at the same time, bit by bit. Now that’s how I write my songs: I have an idea fi rst, a feeling I want to express, then I take out my guitar and record it. Then I sing while playing, and I use the words to express my feelings, and then the song is made. So I don’t separate words from music, only afterwards I polish the lyrics.

Host: In your method music still prevails, and only then come the words. What do you think about the way Bob Dylan composes his songs?

Shayer: It can be explained like this: in Bob Dylan a poet comes before a musician. He highlights his poems withthe music. For him, music is just a tool, it’s a different way to express himself. For me, the music is also a way to express feelings. So when I was speaking about expressing feelings, I meant both lyrics and music.

吴求：刚开始的话，我是旋律和歌词同步写的，一点一点写出来。我最近写歌是，脑子里有个想法，有个感受想说出来，然后我就拿上吉他录音。吉他弹唱，唱的时候唱出一些基本的表达我的感受的词语，然后就是差不多唱完一首歌，也就是说，我先有一个整体的形状，然后再去精确地填词。

主持人：你的方法还是旋律在先，歌词在后。那你对迪伦的写作方式怎么看？他一般是先写出歌词，或者是一首诗的。

吴求：应该是这么解释，他比音乐家更是个诗人。他是用音乐去体现他的歌词，音乐对他来说是一个工具，这也是另外一种表达方法。像我的话，因为旋律也是包含着感受的，所以我刚开始定义的那个感受不仅包括词，也包括那段旋律。

歌曲要不要这么长？

主持人：因为鲍勃·迪伦是个诗人，首先他是写了一首诗，然后再用曲子去展现这首诗，这就出现一种情况，就是这首诗如果很长的话，那这首歌也会很长，很多歌动不动就七八分钟，像《荒芜之街》（Desolation Row），已经有11分20秒之长，完全和现在的主流歌曲不同，吴求对这个怎么看？

吴求：现在的3分多钟的歌曲，前奏之外，中间还加两段间奏，副歌要重复两三遍，那3分钟讲主题的时间其实剩不了多少。这也是我对现在的歌曲比较不满意的一点，就是太短了，歌词里面没有东西。

主持人：现在是一个快餐的时代，现在的歌手如果像迪伦一样，一写就是10分钟的歌，不知道听众会不会听。

吴求：关键是，那个时代没有网络，可选的歌曲没有现在这么多，现在人们的选择太多了，比如说现在很多流行的东西都是一个多少秒的小视频。

苏莉：对，在这个时代，流行的东西越短就越容易传播。比如最近特别火的日本神曲《PPAP》（“Pen-Pineapple-Apple-Pen”），连跳舞带唱歌，也就是1分多钟。

沙可云：我想起以前埃及的音乐，有时一个曲子要一个小时才可以欣赏完。听众和观众的品味不断变化，可能随科技发展，人们的生活不断在加速吧。比如小说，现在大部分人更喜欢选择短篇小说，随着时代变化，人们没有那么多时间去阅读大部头著作。

Should the lyrics be so long?

Host: Because Bob Dylan is a poet, he first writes words, then uses the melody to accompany the lyrics. This kind of approach makes his songs very long, they can last for 7-8 minutes, or, like “Desolation Row”, which lasts for 11 min 20 sec. It’s very different from modern pop music culture. What is your opinion about that, Shayer?

Shayer: The contemporary three-minute songs, apart from the prelusion, in the middle of the song there are two interludes, then the song lyrics repeat two-three times, and thats all. That’s why I am a bit disappointed with modern music - too short and meaningless.

Host: It’s a “fast food” generation, nowadays if an singer decides to write a 10-minute long song like Bob Dylan, I doubt he would fi nd an audience.

Shayer: The key thing is there was no Internet back then, and the choice of songs was not that wide, and now we have a variety of everything to choose from. For example, the most popular vehicle nowadays is a several seconds-long video.

Anastasia: Right, nowadays the shorter it is the easier it is to distribute. For example, the most “viral” video is the Japanese “PPAP” (“Pen-Pineapple-Apple-Pen”). Even with the dancing part, the length of the video doesn’t exceed one minute.

Reem: It reminded me of the Egyptian music, which can last for an hour. The audience’s tastes always go through changes, along with the technology advancement, people’s rhythm of life also gets faster. Take novels as an example, nowadays people prefer short ones, along with the time change, people don’t have so much time for reading anymore.

Comparing Bob Dylan with other singers

Host: In your culture, do you think who can compare with Bob Dylan?

Reem: In our Arabic region, more than twenty countries share the identical culture and language. I think we can take as a comparison the Syrian writer Adonis, who was a popular nominee for the Nobel Literature Prize. Not long ago I noticed a post in my friend’s We-Chat moments, where my friend said it was Adoniswho got the prestigious award, and then later he discovered, it was Bob Dylan, so he got it wrong. I like poems by Adonis. Even though I do not agree with some of his opinions, but from the literature and song lyrics point of view, I prefer poems. He is also pretty famous in China. When I attended his lecture in BFSU, I found out many Chinese readers were very familiar with his works. Music-wise, there is also an artist that can be compared with Bob Dylan, Marsil Khalifa from Lebanon. He plays the Egyptian instrument oud and sings his own songs.

从左到右吴求、沙可云、星悦

和鲍勃·迪伦相比的人

主持人：在你们的文化里，你认为有哪个诗人或音乐人能和鲍勃·迪伦相比？他有什么作品？

沙可云：我们阿拉伯地区，二十几个国家分享同一种语言和文化。我觉得可以对比的是来自叙利亚的阿多尼斯，他也一直是诺贝尔文学奖热门人选。前不久我还看到一个朋友在朋友圈中发了条消息说，阿多尼斯是今年的诺奖得主，后来才发现是迪伦，是他弄错了。阿多尼斯的诗歌我很喜欢，虽然我对他的一些看法不是很赞同，但是从文学和诗歌的角度，我个人很喜欢他的诗。他在中国影响力也比较大，我之前在北外参加过他本人的讲座，发现好多中国读者对他的诗歌都比较熟悉。从音乐角度也有一位可以相比的艺术家，就是来自黎巴嫩的哈利法（Marsil Khalifa）, 他一边弹阿拉伯典型的乐器乌德琴（Oud），一边唱自己写的诗。

吴求：我要说的是泰戈尔，泰戈尔到底是印度人还是孟加拉人，一直有争论。在我看来，以民族性讲的话，他是孟加拉人，以地区性讲的话，他是印度人。不过，他写的大部分诗都是孟加拉语的，在诗里把孟加拉称作祖国、母亲，人们也称他为孟加拉的雪莱。泰戈尔和鲍勃·迪伦的确有可比性。还有一位诗人叫伊斯拉姆（Nazrul Islam），他写了很多反抗当时英国殖民当局的诗，也揭露了很多社会的问题，他是一个相当顽强的诗人，因为有他的诗歌，大家有勇气继续战斗下去，接着反抗。

主持人：最后我跟大家再分享一下这本迪伦的《编年史》里，他对自己的评价。在书的第149页，他这样写道：“无论我走到哪里，我都是一个60年代的游吟诗人，一个摇滚民谣的遗迹，一个从逝去时代过来的词语匠人，一个从无人知晓的地方来的虚构的国家首脑。我处在被文化遗忘的无底深渊之中，走出丛林，人们看到我走来。”这次，正是因为诺贝尔文学奖，让这位隐居丛林中的诗人迪伦，再次向我们走来。（中文整理：吴星铎，英文整理：苏莉，实习生刘鑫莹、华晓军参与录音整理）

Shayer: I want to mention Tagore, whose origins are not quite clear, whether he is from India or Bangladesh. For me, by nationality he is Bangladeshi, but by residency, he is Indian. But the majority of his poems are written in Bangladeshi language. In his works he talks about Bangladesh as his Motherland. His mother and other people also take him as a Bangladeshi. Tagore and Bob Dylan for sure have a lot of things in common. There is a poet called Nazrul Islam, many of his poems protest against British colonization. He revealed a lot of social issues, he is for sure a very courageous poet, because of his works, people had the motivation to continue fi ghting and rebelling.

Host: At the end, I want to share with everyone what Bob Dylan wrote about himself. Page 149 there is such a saying: “No matter where I am, I am always that troubadour from the sixties, that folk, rock-n-roll music’s relic, coming from the past words’ craftsman, coming from nowhere the country’s leader. I came from forgotten by culture’s bottomless abyss, from the forest for the people to see me.” With that, it was really because of the Nobel Literature Prize, that let this living in the forest poet come to us one more time. (Chinese version: Wu Xingduo; English version: Anastasia Sukhoretskaya; interns Liu Xinying, Hua Xiaojun responsible for recording decipherment)

Bob Dylan a Nobel Literature Prize awardee

主持人(Host)：吴星铎，中国（Wu Xingduo，China）

嘉宾主持(Hosting guest)：苏莉，俄罗斯（Anastasia Sukhoretskaya,Russia）

嘉宾(Guests)：吴求，孟加拉国（Shayer S. Utsho,Bangladesh）；沙可云，埃及（Reem Saqr，Egypt)；星悦，美国（Lila Kidson,the USA）