英国景观设计师汤姆·斯图尔特-史密斯对话北京林业大学刘志成教授

采访：李正 同声翻译：吴嘉骥

左：刘志成；右：汤姆·斯图尔特-史密斯Left: LIU Zhicheng; Right: Tom Stuart-Smith

访谈人物：

汤姆·斯图尔特-史密斯/英国景观设计师，Tom Stuart-Smith景观设计事务所创始人/作品以极具创意地融合自然主义和现代性而闻名

刘志成/北京林业大学教授，园林学院副院长/2019年北京世界园艺博览会创意园首席顾问/本刊编委

Profiles:

Tom Stuart-Smith is the British landscape architect and fonder of Tom Stuart-Smith Ltd., and he is famous for his creative combination of naturalism and modernity in garden design.

LIU Zhicheng is a professor in Beijing Forestry University and assistant dean in School of Landscape Architecture, an editorial board member of this Journal. And he is the principal consultant of International Horticultural Exhibition 2019 Creative Gardens.

汤姆·斯图尔特-史密斯是一位擅长将自然主义与现代性融入园林设计的景观设计师。他于1998年建立了以其名字命名的景观设计事务所Tom Stuart-Smith Ltd.，其项目涵盖英国本土对公众开放的大型私人庄园、公园，乡间的小型私家花园，以及散布于欧洲、印度、美国和加勒比地区的海外项目。北京林业大学园林学院副院长刘志成教授在国内从事了几十年的景观设计及教学工作，并作为首席顾问负责2019年北京世界园艺博览会创意展园。本刊特约编辑李正老师邀请到以上2位景观设计领域的重要人物，借2019北京世园会的契机，放眼全球，就地域性与全球化、花园设计与展览会、园艺与风景园林、风景园林与社会等话题进行了交流探讨。

LA：《风景园林》

Tom：汤姆·斯图尔特-史密斯

LIU：刘志成

2019北京世园会相关问题

LA：众所周知，您与詹姆斯·希契莫夫教授合作为2019北京世园会设计了一个创意展园，请问该项目的设计理念是怎样的？设计重点突出表现在哪方面？与以往项目相比特别之处是什么？是否遇到一些困难或障碍？

Tom：我认为建一个展园与建一个真正的花园非常不同，必须遵循不同的规则。展园是一个较自我独立的世界。我们设计之初很重要的一点就是试图将它封闭起来。我觉得在这样（规模的）展会的偌大空间里，（各个）展园（的个性）很容易被湮没。所以浓缩展园的特性是非常重要的。我们的设计显然想要跟中国有关，但这里说的中国也许是从西方眼里看到的中国。令我们（西方）印象深刻的是目前中国的向西方拓展的力度。例如“一带一路“政策下连接中国和伊斯坦布尔的铁路是一个令人难以置信的想法。这也成为了我们花园的中心思想，来唤起我们对外接触的愿望。同时此次展会也关乎世界各地的每一位景观设计师所面对的东西，即如何在尊重自然的前提下进行大规模的开发。现代花园与复杂植被是可以共存的，但现实往往不尽人意。因此我们试图建造一个非常现代化的花园，而与此同时我们试图通过运用复杂的植被，来分享如何人为使两者共存的方法。

地域性与全球化

LA：您在花园设计中非常注重自然主义和现代性的结合。融合是否具有普适性，或是随着地方不同而不同？

Tom：我认为有时候它更适合“不现代”的做法。当在一个文化性非常强的环境中做项目时，这个文化环境可能是有历史意义的，那么把现代性强加其上是完全不合适的。我认为，当你在当代的环境下做项目时，比如本次世园会，或者当你基于旧的环境但需要在大范围内添加一些非常重要的东西时，你可以采用相对现代的语言（图1）。

LA：是否可以用一些简短的句子或短语以您的理解来定义现代性吗？

Tom：现代性对我意味着什么？我认为现代性意味着在今天的设计理念下工作。当然我们都会受到过去的影响，昨天也是过去，我所说的今天的设计理念指的是受近期过去的影响（可能是过去的数小时、数天、数周、数月、数年，而不是指字面上的今天现在，图2）。

LA：当您在不同国家或地区工作时，作为一个外国人您是如何处理地域间的差异使场地与人建立起关系的？

1 私家花园：英国牛津郡布劳顿庄园Private garden: Broughton Grange, Oxfordshire, UK

Tom：首先要聆听并了解这个国家是如何看待大自然及管理土地的。我需要搞清楚当地在土地使用、植物种植上有什么传统，以及，如果有的话，造园的传统。在大多数国家，这可能意味着要透过表象去理解历史、植物学、地质学、水文学和宗教。

LA：当今世界正在全球化，国际交流与合作日益深入，这一点也集中体现在本次园艺博览会的创意展园设计中。作为创意展园策划的首席顾问，您是否对全球化与地域性之间的关系有所考虑？

LIU：的确，目前我们和国际交流已经非常的多样了。就全球范围而言，“全球一体化”或“国际化”早已成为主流态势。尤其是在现代交通与资讯如此发达的前提下，极大地推动、放大了这一状态。

几十年来，在我国的现代化建设过程中，一方面从西方发达国家学到了很多有意思的东西，但另一方面，也失去了很多中国固有的传统与特征。面对现实，我们必须更多地思考如何保持特定地区或地域的个性。基于这样一个目的，在策划创意展园的过程中，希望邀请到来自不同的国家和地区的设计师，以便体现地域与文化差异。在世园局的大力支持下，最终，达到了这个目标。我们邀请到了欧、美、亚三大洲的著名风景园林设计师、园艺学家和园艺师。特别希望通过这次国际化的展会将不同国家或地区的设计师聚集到一起，以差异化的视角阐释各自对园艺与园林的认识。在制定创意展园设计任务书的过程中，明确要求每个设计及团队能够将他们的设计与中国的地域特征相结合。

我们的设想得到了各位设计师良好的回应。比如英国设计团队以“新丝绸之路”为话题，完成了他们的方案。设计方案既是对中国当前时政的一个很好的回应，同时，通过应用丝绸之路沿线上的不同地区的植物，在花园这样一个小尺度范围内形成直接的对比，展示地域差异，并以此为基点展现文化层面上、设计手法层面上的差异，很好地诠释他们对于地域特征的思考以及他们对中国文化的认知，积极促进了文化交流。

同样，美国设计师、丹麦设计师、荷兰设计师和日本园艺师均给予了很好的反馈，视角和特点完全不同。

本项目一方面希望通过创意展园体现各位著名设计师对全球化与地域性的理解，从而使中国的观众能够了解世界，也从另一个角度了解中国；另一方面，这些外国设计师在设计这些花园的过程中更好地了解了中国，所以说创意展园的设计是一个很好的交流和传播的过程。

LA：当您与境外风景园林师合作时是否遇到困难？

LIU：整个项目的具体实施确实有一定难度。相较于设计协调等一系列具体工作，我认为如何彰显本届世园会的主题、概念和特色是一项难度较大的任务。我们希望看到其他国家、民族对园艺博览会的解读方式和构建途径方向的设计师，如何使设计方案能够以不同的视角解读园艺博览会的意义与价值，如何使设计师的作品有效地传播园艺的意义与价值。

各位设计师来自于不同的国家和地区，生活方式、文化背景和需求必然存在差异。同时，设计是一个很个性的工作。在不同的民族和地区的设计师一起合作的过程中，必然会有一些不同的想法，主要是2个层面的内容，一是文化层面的差异性所造成的，另一个是个人的偏好。这些差异会对我们的合作带来一些挑战，会产生碰撞，需要相互协调。

在本次展园的设计与协调过程中，相互之间的交互碰撞，恰恰能够产生更加有价值的思考和想法，这种交流特别具有价值和意义。

2 公共花园：摩洛哥马拉喀什秘密花园Public garden: Le Jardin Secret, Marrakech, Morocco

花园设计与展览会

LA：刘教授，您也经常参加国内各类园林展览会的评审工作，能否介绍一下全国范围内花园设计与展览会的关系？

LIU：我国近年来建设的大型博览园广受欢迎。每一个博览园中都有很多不同类型的小型展览花园，大部分由各省、市或行业机构组织设计、施工与建设，称为“地方展园”或“行业展园”。有些博览园特别聘请了国内外著名的风景园林设计师设计展览花园，称为“设计师花园”，俗称“大师园”，本次称为“创意展园”。

博览园往往由公共展区与地方展区（包括国际展区）组成，已成为基本模式。花园是地方展区的“细胞”，是博览园中最丰富多样的区域，最具“博览性”，也是最吸引人的区域。这些花园分别体现各地的地域文化或行业特征，个性突出、内容多样，代表了所属地区行业对博览会的认知与理解，反映当地的行业发展水平，构建了非常丰富与广泛的交流平台，极大地丰富与完善了博览会的内容。

LA：汤姆先生，您多次在切尔西花展中获得花园设计金奖，能否请您分享一下您对切尔西花展的认知？谈谈您作为该花展花园设计师的体会？

Tom：我自己做了8个花园并都拿到了金奖（图3）。我从切尔西做花园学到的东西之一就是，每个花园只表达一个想法，而不是在狭小的空间里去表达太多复杂的东西。我们从商业角度也证明了这个事实，大部分的花园往往是为特定的赞助商设计的。我曾多次为法国公司做切尔西展园，我为香奈儿（CHANEL）做过一个展园（图4），还为一个叫罗兰百悦（Laurent-perrier）的香槟酒公司做过展园（图5）。对他们来说，这些展园成功地实现了他们借此传递公司价值观的想法。唯一不太成功的是当出现共同赞助商的时候，2个不同的人都试图通过同一个展园表达各自的想法，冲突是不可避免的。还有，永远不要试图把这些展园弄得像居家花园一样。展园更注重的是如何组织空间，以及如何在空间里安排植物，而不是能让人直接照搬回家的（普通花园）。总之很重要的一点是不要让事情太复杂（图6）。因为与北京世园会不同，切尔西花展我们只有3个星期的时间来修建花园，在那里展出一个星期，然后就被会被拆除。

LA：在您看来切尔西花展、2019北京世园会的项目、德国柏林2017国际园艺展（IGA）等展览会之间有何不同？

Tom：切尔西花展非常短暂，非常紧张，但不是很可持续。我希望北京的世园会能具可持续性，也希望创意展园能经住时间的考验。IGA与此（北京世园会）有点类似，但规模要小得多并隶属于一个已有的公园。 因此与北京不同的是，IGA并不会给周边带来区域性的变化（图7）。

3 展园：切尔西花展2010年罗兰百悦园Exhibition garden: Chelsea 2010 The Laurent-Perrier Garden

园艺与风景园林

LA：请您谈谈英国民众心目中的“园艺”，给我们介绍一下英国的园艺文化。比如，英国有哪些与园艺有关的展览会？英国民众如何看待和参与这些展会？

Tom：园艺在很长一段时间里一直是英国文化的中心，我认为园艺往往出自稳定的环境。很幸运英国长期以来一直是一个相当稳定的国家，就像中国现在一样，所以园艺浮出水面。我认为在英国，园艺和景观在外人看来是相当相似的，但对于业内人士来说是完全不同的。园艺师跟景观设计师双方之间都不怎么交流。这是非常非常令人伤感的。我不知道中国是否也是这样。我认为这是因为景观设计师更多地把自己放在一个建筑师的角色上（掌控全局，其他人全为其服务），园艺师也许会感到受歧视（图8） 。

LA：在英国，景观设计师是否会被邀请到园艺博览会上参与规划和设计？还是他们实际上没有机会参与？

Tom：这视情况而定，切尔西花展几乎是以花园设计师和园艺师为主。我有点特殊，我是一个景观设计师，也没有受过园艺师的训练，但我也可以算是一名园艺师，因为我一直是照顾自己花园的园丁（图9）。我认为景观设计师对园艺师比较傲慢，这不是一个智慧的立场，因为协同合作总是（比各管各）好得多。

LIU：我觉得在中国的情况可能跟英国有一定差异。我们学院有很多从事植物学科的老师，也有很多规划与设计学科老师。我们会相互合作，共同去完成很多的教学和研究工作。就整个中国来说，很多园林专业在农林院校，使国内2个专业始终保持密切合作关系成为一种常态。

Tom：我觉得设计师如果不亲自动手实践，很难获得真正的园艺经验。我感觉有意往学术方向发展的学生往往不太乐意参与园艺实践。这（亲手参与园艺）是很重要的，有丰富园艺经验并不妨碍学术造诣，是可以做到二者兼具的。

此外，我确信对很多在英国做大规模的景观项目以及景观总体规划的风景园林师来说，对植物的种植和了解与他们的工作并不一定相关，这一点我能理解。但是还有很多从事小规模项目的景观设计师，他们用相当复杂的方式使用了大量的植物材料，但对这些材料知之甚少，我感到这是景观设计的悲哀。

LA：近年来中国围绕绿色发展也组织了很多展览会，这些展会有区别吗？园艺博览会的展园设计与园林博览会的展园设计有什么区别？风景园林师在园艺博览会中应该扮演何种角色？

LIU：中国近二三十年来办了很多与绿色发展相关的博览会，如现在我们在讨论的世园会，其他还有绿博会、花博会等，包括国际级展会，还有更多的国家级和省级的大型的展会。受到了广大群众的欢迎，也为国家和地区的绿色发展带来了一个巨大的推动作用。不同的展会由不同的行业组织。世界园艺博览会是由“国际园艺生产者协会”（AIPH）倡导、批准举办的国际展会。这个活动又分不同的级别，我们今天谈到的北京世园会是最高级别的A1级展会。

世界园艺博览会是园艺行业推动国际花卉、园艺产业发展的一次盛会。园艺博览会通过展览、展示活动，推广新技术、新品种，交流园艺栽培与运营方式，推动产品营销与推广，促进文化交流。园艺植物是绿色建设与发展的重要物质材料，也是重要的文化载体。在宏观层面上，我国的园艺博览会由国家或地方政府组织建设实施，这一点与其他国家由行业或协会组织有很大不同。在内容上，除关注本行业的发展外，本次园艺博览会对于如何推动国家的生态文明建设和文化建设，引领与带动区域建设的健康发展尤为关注，是展会举办的核心意义与价值所在。

中国国际园林博览会由住建部和地方政府、组织联合举办，简称“园博会”。我认为园林博览会更多的去展示、探讨人居环境的建构内容、途径与方式，主体是建设层面的，内容以展示、探讨生态建设和文化建设的途径为核心，不仅包括园艺植物材料，还包括其他与生态与生活密切相关的一切材料和手段。园博会以“国家园林城市”建设与“生态园林城市”建设所取得的丰硕成果为契机，广泛展示优秀成果，对于推动国家生态文明建设发挥了巨大作用，对于进一步响应“十九大”号召，构建国家生态体系与生态安全格局意义重大。

风景园林师在各级政府与主管部门的引领下，参与博览园规划、设计与建设的全过程，具有核心价值。风景园林师在全面领会园艺博览会的意义与价值的前提下，准确定位建设的目的、意义与特征，运用合理的技术手段，全方位展示园艺优良品种与园艺栽培技术，深度展现园艺行业对于维护生物多样性、改善环境、生态修复、构建社会文化体系等方面的重要作用。

4 展园：切尔西花展1998年香奈儿园Exhibition garden: Chelsea 1998 Le Bosquet de Chanel

风景园林与社会

LA：中国正处于高速发展时期，您认为对风景园林行业而言，当下绿色发展的核心问题是什么？风景园林师在更大范围的绿色发展进程中应该扮演何种角色？

LIU：所谓绿色发展，就是要解决好人与自然和谐共生问题。人类的社会活动必须以尊重自然、顺应自然、保护自然为前提。

总体而言，风景园林学科关乎人们的生活需求、生产需求、生态需求与文化需求。我认为对于本学科而言，核心问题是如何协调人们对美好生活环境的追求与这一追求所带来的生态负担之间的矛盾，如何建设健康、生态、优美、功能完善、文化底蕴丰厚的生活环境。

我们处于一个伟大的“新时代”，我国特定的物质与文化环境需要我们去探索新的生态建设发展路径，去实践中国特有的“生态文明建设”伟大征程。中华民族一向以“天人合一”为发展理念，在人居环境的建设过程中，素来以尊重自然为前提。传统园林营建以“虽由人作，宛自天开”为准则。因此，我国风景园林事业的建设与发展具有坚实的“绿色发展”基础。建设绿色生活环境是风景园林学科的基本内容，人居环境的生态建设与发展途径是本学科研究的核心内容。当前，我们处在一个非常好的发展时期，整个国家生态建设的需求迫切，环境的巨大的缺口需要我们填充。尤其“十九大”以后，国家特别强调生态建设，为我们提供了非常好的机遇，我们特别需要不断自我完善，支撑社会和国家的绿色发展需要。

构建宜居的生活场所是提高人们生活水平的重要途径。绿地与人们的生活息息相关，公园已成为人们日常康体健身、休闲娱乐、文化传播与交流的基地。通过绿地的文化建设，提升绿地的文化品质，传播民族文化与生态文化，树立文化自信，是风景园林学科在人居环境构建过程的另一项重要工作。

所以，我们是国家绿色发展与生态文明建设的践行者，是国家生态基础设施与文化基础设施建设的核心力量，必将在祖国的“绿色发展”进程中的核心力量。

LA：英国经过多年的努力，生态环境处于很好的状态，您认为英国风景园林行业应该着力解决什么社会问题？

Tom：我认为中英共有的很重要一点是，绿色倡议的举措往往需要5年、10年、15年、20年才能产生效果，政治制度往往每三四年变化一次。这两者在时间上不对应。若要绿色倡议生效，政治家们需要有更长远的眼光。我认为我们面临的另一个重大挑战是让事情可持续并减少我们所有工作环节的碳排放。这常常与时间相关，如果人们缺乏等待结果出现的耐心，那实际花费就会不必要地大大增加，例如只种大树（而不是种小树苗待其长大），生态系统没有机会发展，只因为有人说我想在一个月之内看到完美画面（而不是等待数月乃至数年，待其自然达到完美状态）。我们对生态过程发生的时间尺度必须更加宽容 （图 10） 。

所以我认为在很多方面，尽管我们的文化差异很大，而且我们处于社会发展的不同阶段。而我们很多共有的问题，最基本的问题，实际上都是太多太多人，太少空间，以及没有足够的时间。

未来挑战与准备工作

LA：从实践者角度看，您认为未来十年我们将面对哪些新挑战，风景园林行业应该如何准备应对？

Tom：我认为最大的2个挑战之一，也是最明显的，是全球变暖，另一个是治水。对于治水，风景园林师也许可以做出更多贡献，因为毕竟在规模上它更接近我们所涉足的项目。显然这在北京是一个大问题，但是在欧洲城市它也是个大问题，因为气候变化，更多的水在不该来的时候来了，我们得知道该怎么办。同时缺水情况依然存在，我们就得保存它。

LA：那么风景园林师应该如何做好准备解决这个问题呢？

Tom：嗯，这个问题相信Stig L. Anderson会更有感触，他们在哥本哈根做了一个非凡的项目，研究整个城市如何能够更有弹性地应对洪涝灾害。在英格兰，我们没有像丹麦那样有远见。因为我们没发生过这样的洪涝灾害，所以我们没有应对的策略。但我认为风景园林师可以发挥巨大的作用，通过出谋划策来帮助预防灾害造成的损失。

LA：从高校教师角度看，风景园林学科应该如何准备，以更好应对未来的挑战？

LIU：这是一个需要特别认真思考的问题。当前，对于风景园林学科而言，任务非常艰巨，发展机遇前所未有，挑战同样也非常巨大。

作为国家一级学科，风景园林学科需要在国家建设与发展过程中发挥核心作用。风景园林学科是由多学科交叉融合的应用科学，它以协调人与自然关系为根本使命，因此学科建设与发展一直与生态文明建设紧密相关。国家建设对本学科的人才需求也达到了前所未有的高潮，高层次、综合性的风景园林专业人才的需求大大提高，风景园林学科教育备受瞩目。

一直以来，生态与文化是风景园林学科的支撑系统，也是本学科的优势所在，风景园林学科始终都是国家生态建设与文化建设的主力军，已成为目前国家建设的主要需要。面对未来，本学科必将发挥文化底蕴深厚的优势，突出生态应用技术研究特色，引领生态建设的发展方向，使每一个学生都能成为未来国家健康、永续发展的栋梁之才，使风景园林行业在国家建设过程中发挥更大作用。

结语

LA：请2位嘉宾分别阐述您对于世园会的期望或寄语。

Tom：我认为这将是一个有趣的旅程，我认为常与别人合作虽说会带来紧迫感，但同时也可以达成比自己单独做得更好的事情。此次世园会将是一个有相当多不同的人参与的合作，应该会有很多有趣的事情发生。但是我认为我们此次来到中国最有趣的事情，就是看到中国人对我们这个展园的策略和实践的反馈。还有一点就是关于权衡取舍……我们从你们操作世园会的方式中获益匪浅，我肯定这次世园会的耗时可能不到英国同类项目周期的1/4。这在英国可能需要30年来策划，外加10年来开展。而你们能在短短2年时间里能做到现在这样。

LIU：这次创意展园方案征集和2017年12月2日举行的论坛有一个共同的主题：“引领、传播、共融”，这是我一直以来对本届世园会的期望与寄语，也是我及我们这个团队努力工作的座右铭。我希望这些精致的创意展园能够成为传播绿色思想的典范，不仅优美，而且能够很好地引领全社会树立良好的生态的观念，追寻绿色的生活方式。特别期待我们这届世园会能够起到引领行业的发展、传播绿色文化的作用，能够将世界不同的文化、不同的园艺技术手段相互融合，通过中国北京、通过延庆广泛传播，并发扬光大！

致谢：感谢王一兰前期准备采访内容。

注释：

图1由James Kerr摄；图2、9由Marianne Majerus摄；图3、4、6由Andrew Lawson摄；图5由Sabina Rüber摄；图7由Jacqueline van der Kloet摄；图8由Allan Pollok-Morris摄；图10由Hufton+Crow摄。

录音整理：刘德嘉

翻译：万静柯

校对：王晞月

（编辑/王一兰）

Tom Stuart-Smith is a landscape designer who is good at integrating naturalism and modernism into landscape design. In 1998 he established landscape design institute named the Tom Stuart-Smith Ltd. according to his name. His projects cover large private estates, parks, small private gardens in the countryside, and overseas projects in Europe, India, the United States and the Caribbean. Professor LIU Zhicheng, the assistant dean of landscape architecture of Beijing Forestry University who is engaged in the researching affairs has devoted himself to the domestic landscape design and teaching work for decades and as a chief consultant he is responsible for creative garden of the Beijing Expo 2019. Teacher LI Zheng, the contributing editor of the Journal invited the two above-mentioned celebrities in the field of landscape design. With the opportunity of the Beijing Expo 2019, thinking globally,they discussed the topics including regions and globalization, garden design and exhibition,horticulture and landscape architecture as well as landscape architecture and society.

5 展园：切尔西花展2008年罗兰百悦园Exhibition garden: Chelsea 2008 The Laurent-Perrier Garden

LA:Landscape ArchitectureJournal

Tom: Tom Stuart-Smith

LIU: LIU Zhicheng

Some Questions Related to Beijing Expo 2019

LA: It is well-known that you and Professor James Hitchmough are responsible for designing a creative garden for Beijing Expo 2019. What is your design concept and which highlight makes your project special?And what kind of problems or obstructers you encountered in the process because of the totally different context?

Tom: I think making a show garden is very different from making a real garden in a way you have to have different rules. So it needs to be in a way, a kind of world to itself. And one of the things we started doing was by looking at how it could be enclosed. I think it’s very easy in these kinds of exhibition gardens for a garden to get lost in the great space of a show. So actually making something quite concentrated is quite important. And we obviously want to do something which was about China, but probably about China as we see it from the west. And one of the things that we see very strongly now is this feeling of China reaching out towards the west.So the idea of the belt road the new railway that is connecting the east of China right through to Istanbul is an incredible idea. And so that is the central idea of the garden in a way, it can somehow evoke us reaching out. But it’s also about something that every landscape architect everywhere in the world faces, which is how do you carry out development on a big scale and respect nature. So we’ve tried to make a garden that is very contemporary in its construction but actually tells quite a mixed and detailed story about complex vegetation and how the two can co-exist but quite often don’t but we are trying to tell an educational story in a way about how the two could be made to co-exist.

Locality and Globalization

LA: You pay great attention to the integration of naturalism and modernity in garden design, do you think such integration is universal, or should it differ from places?

Tom: Well I think that sometimes it’s much more appropriate not to be modern. Sometimes I think when one is working in a very strong cultural environment which may be historic then it can be completely inappropriate to impose modernity on this. I think it’s really when you are working in a contemporary environment like we are in this new show or when you are adding something very signi ficant on a signi ficant scale to something old that you can be more contemporary (Fig. 1).

LA: Can you actually use some short sentences or phrases to define what modernity means to you?

Tom: What modernity means to me? I think modernity means working within today’s design concepts. So of course, we are all influenced by the past and yesterday is the past but it’s working within the very recent in fluence of the past (Fig. 2).

LA: When you work in different place, how did you deal with regional difference to forge connections between place and people as a foreigner?

Tom: The first thing is to listen and find out how nature is viewed and how the land is managed in the country. I need to find out what traditions there are of arranging the land, growing plants, and what traditions there are—if any of making gardens. In most countries this may mean understanding something of the history, botany, geology, hydrology and religion that lies under the surface.

LA: Our world is in the process of globalization, international exchange and collaboration become increasingly frequent and deep,which is best manifested in Beijing Expo 2019 in which five groups of international landscape architects are invited to design creative gardens. As the principal consultant for these gardens, did you have any considerations concerning the relationship between globalization and locality?

LIU: We have had diverse international exchanges currently. In terms of global range, “globalization” and “internationalization” has become a mainstream trend. In particular, under the premise of such advanced modern transportation and information, this trend has been greatly promoted and magni fied.

In recent decades, we have learned a great deal from the west and made impressive achievements during the modernization. But meanwhile many unique Chinese traditions and features have also been lost. Facing the reality, we have to think more about how to keep the uniqueness of certain areas and regions. For that purpose, during the process we planned to let the famous foreign designer design these gardens, we firstly hope that the designers came from different countries and regions so as to re flect the regional and cultural difference. Finally, with the strong support of the Bureau of International Horticultural Exhibition, we achieved that goal. We have invited the internationally renowned landscape architects from America, Holland and Denmark, British designers and the famous horticulturalists from Britain and Japan. We particularly hope that this international exposition can gather designers from different countries and regions together to share the understanding of horticulture and gardening from the differential perspective.When making the Mission Book, we were also thinking that how we require their designs to connect with Chinese regional culture.

6 展园：切尔西花展2001年罗兰百悦园Exhibition garden: Chelsea 2001 The Laurent-Perrier Garden

Our thoughts have received great responses from designers. For example,the British design team completed their scheme taking “The New Silk Road”as the topic. It is not only a good response to the current politics in China.Meanwhile, through the plants of different regions along the Silk Road, a direct comparison is made within a small scale of garden to show the regional difference. Then based on this, the differences between the cultural and design aspects can be presented and their consideration about regional features and their knowledge about Chinese culture are expressed perfectly. All of these actively contribute to promote the cultural exchanges.

Designers from USA, Denmark, Holland as well as the Japanese Horticulturists all gave good feedbacks with totally different perspectives and characteristics.

We all hope that these famous designers can give us their understanding about globalization and region, and that how they perceive China’s natural features and regional cultures through their designs, so as to make Chinese people both know more about the world and our country from another point of view. Of course, these foreign designers also have a better understanding of China when designing these gardens. Therefore, designing Creative Garden is a good process of communicating and disseminating culture.

LA: Did you encounter any problems or challenges when collaborating with landscape architects from outside China?

LIU: The speci fic operation of the entire project does have some difficulties.It is not so hard for design coordination. But in terms of inviting the famous designers and horticulturists to this exposition, it is necessary to complete a series of tasks. We also particularly hope to see different interpretations from other countries and nations to the flower and horticultural expositions. Therefore,the difficulties mainly come from how to select the designers who can lead the direction, how to make the design schemes embody the significance and value of the horticultural exposition from different perspectives and how to make the designer’s works effectively convey the horticultural significance and value.

These designers come from different countries and regions, so there are inevitable differences in their lifestyle, culture background and needs.Meanwhile, designing is a kind of work full of individuality. In the process of the coordination among designers from different nations and regions, there are bound to some different ideas which are mainly caused by two aspects: one is the cultural differences and another is personal preference. These differences will bring some challenges and collisions to our cooperation, so we need to coordinate with each other.

The interactive collisions when designing can produce more valuable thinking and ideas which is of great value and signi ficance.

Garden Design and Expos

LA: Professor LIU, I know that you've also frequently participated in the review of various garden expos in China, would you like to introduce the relationship of garden design and expos from national point of view?

LIU: The large expos which were built by our country have enjoyed great popularity in recent years. Each expo includes various small exposition gardens,most of which are designed, built and constructed by provinces, cities and the industry bodies, so they are often called “Local Garden” or “Industrial Garden”. In some expos famous landscape architects at home and abroad are particularly invited to design garden which is called “Designer Garden”, known as “Master Garden”, but it is called “Creative Garden” in this expo at this time.

The expo is often composed of public and local exhibition areas (including international exhibition areas), which has become the basic model. Being the “cell” of the local exhibition area, the gardens are the most diverse and attractive areas full of great values of visiting. They have prominent personality and diverse contents which respectively manifest local and regional culture as well as industry features, represent the understanding of the region and its industry and present the developing level of the local industry. In this way a rich and extensive exchange platform is built and the expo’s contents is greatly enriched and improved.

LA: You have got many medals from the Chelsea Flower Show.Would you like to share your understanding of the show? And what’s your experience as a designer of this flower show?

Tom: Well, I’ve made 8 gardens there on my own and they all won gold medals (Fig. 3). I think one of the things I learned from making gardens at Chelsea was to make a garden about one idea not to try to express too many complicated things in a small space. We also found this truth from a commercial point of view that most of the gardens tend to be for a particular sponsor. I made it many time for French companies, so I made a garden for CHANEL(Fig. 4), and for Laurent-perrier the Champagne company (Fig. 5). These were successful for them in getting across their idea of the garden re flecting values that they had in their company. The only time it was less successful was when there was a co-sponsor, two different people were trying to get across their ideas.And this was always a con flict. One other thing I would say is I found that it was always a good idea never to try to make these gardens too much like gardens that anybody could have outside the back of their house or something like that. They were much more about the idea of how you could organize space and how you could work with plants in the space. They were not directly a kind of thing that you could lift up and take home as it were. I suppose one other thing was always about not making things too complicated (Fig. 6). Because unlike this garden in Beijing, we only have had 3 weeks to build the garden and it was there for 1 week and then it was taken away.

LA: In your opinion, what are the differences between the Chelsea Flower Show, Beijing Expo 2019 and IGA Berlin 2017?

Tom: The Chelsea flower show is very short, very intense and not very sustainable. The Beijing Expo 2019, I hope, will be much more sustainable than this and the Masters gardens are made to last. IGA is somewhat similar to this but is on a much smaller scale than Beijing and was incorporated into an existing park- so unlike Beijing it was not transformative for the area (Fig. 7).

7 展园：德国柏林2017国际园艺展Exhibition garden: IGA Berlin 2017

Horticulture and Landscape Architecture

LA: Could you talk about the “Horticulture” in British people’s mind and give us a brief introduction to the culture of gardening in Britain.For instance, what expos does Britain have? And how do the British people view and participate in these garden exhibitions?

Tom: Well I mean horticulture has been quite central to British culture for a long time I think, often horticulture comes with stability. And Britain has been very fortunate to be a quite stable country for a long time, rather like China is now. So horticulture rises to the surface. I think certainly in Britain horticulture and landscape architecture are seen from the outside as being quite similar from the inside as being very very different, that horticulturalists don’t speak to landscape architects and landscape architects don’t speak to horticulture, which is very very stupid and very sad. I don’t know whether there is something similar in China. I think this is because landscape architects feel more like architects, horticulturalists feel insulted perhaps (Fig. 8).

8 公共花园：特伦特姆花园Public garden: Trentham

LA: In the UK do landscape architects got be invited to actually plan and design in the horticulture expo? Or they actually have no chance to participate in?

Tom: It depends, I mean that the Chelsea flower show it’s almost always garden designers and horticulturists. I think I’m unusual that I’m a landscape architect who’s also not trained as a horticulturist but I am a plantsman as well because I’ve always been a gardener so I’ve always looked after my own garden (Fig. 9). I think the landscape architects tend to be rather arrogant towards horticulturists. This is a foolish position really I think because it’s always much better to work together and to cooperate.

LIU: I think the situation in China may be different from that of in Britain. As he saw, we have a lot of teachers working on plants research and many teachers working on designing, all of them are in a same department. We work together to complete the works of teaching and researching.Actually, for the whole China, many majors of landscape architecture in the agricultural and forestry universities are in this state that the designers on landscape architecture and workers on plants can always keep a relatively close relationship.

Tom: I think it is quite difficult for designers to get real experience with horticulture unless they actually do it with their hands and get practical experience. I think there is a great reluctance amongst students who want to be academic to get their hands dirty. It is important, you can actually be clever and have dirty hands it is possible.

I can understand that I’m sure that there are lots of landscape architects working on a bigger scale working on landscape masterplans in the UK for whom planting and understanding of plants are not necessarily that relevant. But there are a lot who work on a smaller scale who do use a lot of plant material in quite a complex way but they have very little knowledge of it, this strikes me as a sad thing.

LA: China has organized many exhibitions in recent years to promote green development,are there any differences between these expos?More specifically, what are the differences between the garden design in horticulture expos and those in garden expos? What role should a landscape architect play in a horticultural exposition?

LIU: China has held many expos about green development in the recent two or three decades,such as the Beijng Expo 2019 we are talking about now, Green Expo, Flora Expo, including the international exhibitions and many national and provincial-level large-scale exhibitions. All of these has not only been welcomed by the mass but also promoted the national and regional green development. Different exhibitions are organized by different industries. The International Horticultural Exhibition is the one initiated and approved by the “International Association of Horticultural Producers (AIPH)”. It is divided into different levels, and the Beijing Expo 2019 we are talking today is A1 level, the highest one.

The International Horticultural Exhibition is a grand gathering for promoting the development of international flowery and horticultural industry.Through exhibition activities, the Horticultural Expo introduces new techniques and varieties,exchanges the cultivation and operation mode,improves the product marketing and promotion as well as enhances cultural exchanges. Horticultural plants are not only the important materials for green construction and development but also the significant cultural carriers. On a macro level, our country’s expos are organized and constructed by the national or local government which is very different from other countries whose expos are organized by the industry or association. In the content, in addition to the industry development, this expo will focus on how to promote ecological progress and cultural construction as well as lead and drive regional healthy development, which is exactly the core meaning and value of holding expos.

This International Horticultural Expo in China was jointly held by the Ministry of Housing and Urban-Rural Development, local governments and organizations, and it is called “Garden Expo”for short. What the expo shows and explores more are the construction contents, means and ways of living environment. Its main part is about the construction and the contents focusing on showing and exploring the means of ecological and cultural construction, including both the plants and other materials and means closely related to ecology and life. The expo takes the opportunity of constructing “Nationally Garden City” and“Ecological Garden City” to extensively show the excellent achievements. As a result, the ecological civilization was greatly promoted and for the further responding to the 19th CPC National Congress, it is significant to build the national ecological system and security pattern.

Under the guidance of governments at all levels and the competent departments,landscape architects have been fully involved in planning and construction of the expo and controlled from all aspects, showing their core values. As the planner, designer and constructer,they first comprehensively grasp the expo’s significance and value, and then accurately find the purposes, significance and features of the construction, dig into the garden cultures and regional characteristics and use proper techniques so as to show the horticultural good varieties,cultivation and maintenance technologies in an all-round ways as well as re flect the importance of horticultural industry for protecting biodiversity,improving environment, ecological rehabilitation and building horticultural system.

Landscape Architecture and Society

LA: China is developing fast now. Inn your opinion, what’s the core issue of green development for landscape architecture industry in China? What role should landscape architects play in a broader green development process?

LIU: The so-called green development is to solve the harmonious co-existence problem between human and the nature. And human social activities must be based on the premise of respecting nature,obeying nature and conserving nature.

Overall, the landscape architecture discipline is vital to people’s demand for life, production,ecology and culture. I think that for this subject, the core problem is how to reconcile people’s pursuit for a better material life with the contradiction originating from the pursuit among ecological burden, and how to build healthy, ecological,beautiful living environment with full function and profound culture background.

We are in great new era, our country’s specific material and cultural environment requires us to explore a new path of ecological construction development in order to practice the great Chinese journey of ecological civilization construction. And Chinese nation has always regarded the proverb that man and nature live in harmony as the development concept, so we naturally create residential environment on the premise of respecting nature. The construction of traditional Chinese garden abides by the concept“Though it is made by man, it seems like being created by the Nature”, which lays a solid green development foundation for the construction and development of landscape architecture in China.Creating green living environment is the basic content of landscape architecture discipline, and the ecological construction and development path of living environment is the core content in the research of this discipline. At present, we are in a sound development period in which the ecological construction in our whole country is in urgent demand and tremendous environmental problem requires us to deal with. Especially after the 19th CPC National Congress, the special emphasis on ecological construction has provided us with great opportunities, and we need to constantly improve ourselves to support the needs of green development in our society and country.

Building livable living places is an important approach to improve people’s living standard.Green land is closely related to people’s life,and parks have become people’s bases for daily fitness activities, as well as the communication and exchange of culture. With the culture building of green land, the culture quality has been improved, the culture of nation and ecology has been spread and our culture confidence has been enhanced, which are the other task of landscape architecture discipline in the construction of residual environment. Along with the rapid improvement of people’s living standard, people’s need for quality life is daily on the increase. How to provide the public with a sound sports fitness centers, environment for culture and entertainment as well as high-quality daily environment for leisure and living, which requires us to play an important role.

Therefore, we are major contributors and practitioners in constructing ecological civilization in our country’s green development, we are core strengths in national ecological infrastructure and cultural infrastructure, and we will play an important role in the process of green development of the motherland.

LA: After many years' efforts, the ecological environment in Britain is in quite good condition. What is the core issue for landscape architecture industry in Britain from your point of view?

Tom: Well, I think one priority we probably share with China is the fact that green initiatives tend to takes 5, 10 years 15 years 20 years to come to have an effect, political systems tend to change every 3 years 4 years. So the two are out of time with each other. And politicians need to have a longer vision for green initiatives to take hold.

So I think the other big challenge we face is the big issue of making things sustainable and reducing the carbon footprint of all the work we do. And I think often than that is also connected with time that if people are very impatient to see results then things end up costing much more than they need to, trees are planted in much bigger sizes, ecological systems don’t have a chance to develop because people say I want this looking perfect in a month’s time. We have to be more understanding of the time scale that ecological processes take place over (Fig. 10).

So I think in many ways although our cultures are very different and we are at very different stages of our development. And many of the problems,the basic problems, we have we actually share are to do with too many people too little space, not enough time.

9 私家花园：汤姆的私家花园Private garden: Tom’s garden

Future Challenges and Preparations

LA: From the perspective of a professional practitioner, what kind of new challenges do you think we are going to face in the next decade? How should landscape architecture industry prepare to cope with them?

Tom: I would say the two greatest challenges are the most obvious one of all which is global warming and the one maybe landscape architect can contribute much more because we are working on that kind of scale is to do with water and water management and obviously this is a big issue here in Beijing but it’s a big issue in European cities as well as we have climate change and more water comes on a few occasion we have to know what to do with it.But there is less of it as well and we have to conserve it.

LA: So how should landscape architect get prepared to solve this issue?

Tom: Well I think I’m sure you are going to talk to Stig Anderson they’ve done an extraordinary project in Copenhagen looking at how the whole city can be made much more resilient to big dramatic flood events. In England,we don’t have quite the sort of vision as they tend to have in Denmark so we haven’t had a traumatic event like that so we don’t have a strategy like that but I think landscape architects can play an enormous role in bringing together strategic initiatives to help to prevent traumatic events like that.

LA: From the perspective of a college educator, how will you recommend the discipline of landscape architecture to be better prepared to deal with such challenges?

LIU: This is a question that needs to be seriously considered. For landscape architecture discipline, the task is very difficult, the development opportunities are unprecedented, and the challenges are also huge.

As first-level state discipline, landscape architecture discipline needs to play a core role in the process of national construction and development and it is an applied science with multidisciplinary integration, it considers coordinating the relation of man and nature as fundamental mission,so the discipline construction and development has been closely related to ecological civilization construction. Facing the severe situation and arduous task, landscape architecture discipline which is dedicated to the living environment and ecological environment construction is facing unprecedented opportunities and challenges, and it is unprecedented in the situation of national construction demanding for talents in this discipline,and the demand for high level and comprehensive professional talents in landscape architecture is increasing greatly, so much more attention is paid to the education in this discipline.

For a long time, ecology and culture are support systems of landscape architecture discipline, and also the advantages of this discipline. This discipline is always the main force of national ecological and cultural construction, and currently it has become the major demand in national construction. In the future, this subject will exert a profound cultural advantages, highlight the characteristics of ecological application technology research, lead the development direction of ecological construction, so that it can make every students become the future national pillars who can support our country’s well-running and sustainable development, and make the landscape architecture industry can play more important role in the process of national construction.

Concluding Remarks

LA: Could you please tell us your expectations or wishes for the Beijing Expo 2019?

Tom: Well I think it’s going to be an interesting journey I think always collaborating with somebody brings up tensions but it can bring something better than you are able to do yourself. And in this instance it’s going to be a collaboration with quite a lot of different people so there is potential for many interesting things to come about. But I think the most interesting thing of all for us coming here to China is to see the reaction that Chinese people have to what we are doing and the approach we are taking to this garden. And you always balance... there is a balance to that what we learn from looking at the way you put together the expo which I’m quite sure will be done in about sort of a quarter of the time that we would ever be able to do something like that in England, which would have to be planed sort of thirty years ahead and would take you know ten years to put on.You have 2 years to do this which seems like an incredibly short period of time.

10 私家花园：西班牙巴利亚多利德Private garden: Valladolid, Spain

LIU: In the collection of design schemes for creative gardens and the forum held on the 2nd of December, there is a common theme, that is,“Guidance, Communication and Integration”. It is my expectations and wishes for the exposition all the time, and it is also the motto that my team and I work hard for. I hope these delicate creative gardens can be the models for spreading the green ideas, and they are not only beautiful, but also can effectively guide the whole society to foster sound ecological ideas, and to pursue green way of life. I really hope this expo can play a great role in guiding the development of industries and spreading the green culture, and I even expect that in this expo different culture and horticulture techniques or methods all over the world can be integrated with each other, and then they can be spread widely and further through Beijing of China or through Yanqing District of Beijing.

Acknowledgement:Thanks to WANG Yilan for her contribution to this interview during early preparation period.

Notes:

Fig.1 is photographed by James Kerr; Fig. 2, 9 are photographed by Marianne Majerus; Fig. 3, 4, 6 are photographed by Andrew Lawson; Fig. 5 is photographed by Sabina Rüber; Fig. 7 is photographed by Jacqueline van der Kloet; Fig. 8 is photographed by Allan Pollok-Morris;Fig. 10 is photographed by Hufton+Crow.