英国谢菲尔德大学詹姆斯·希契莫夫教授对话北京林业大学董丽教授

采访：尹豪 同声翻译：杭烨

左：董丽；右：詹姆斯·希契莫夫Left: DONG Li; Right: James Hitchmough

访谈人物：

（英）詹姆斯·希契莫夫/英国谢菲尔德大学景观学院院长、生态园艺学教授/研究方向为大规模草本及木本植物群落自然式种植设计与管理

董丽/北京林业大学园林学院副院长、教授/研究方向为园林植物景观规划设计、园林生态等相关理论研究、实践及教学/本刊编委

Profiles：

James Hitchmough who is from Britain is the dean in School of Landscape and professor of ecological horticulture the University of Sheffield. His research focuses on design and management of natural planting of herbaceous and woody vegetation.

DONG Li is the assistant dean, professor of School of Landscape Architecture,Beijing Forestry University and editoral board member of this Journal. Her research focuses on theory, practice and teaching relating to plant landscape planning and design and Landscape ecology.

詹姆斯·希契莫夫教授提出了具有生态概念的投入可持续植物群落设计的理论，成功完成了2012伦敦奥林匹克公园中20hm2的种植设计，整个设计是基于生态学原理的草本植物群落种植设计，并形成了全新的“生态皮肤”这一理念。董丽教授引入“自然度”和“近自然园林”的概念，在研究地带性植被特征的基础上，成功主持完成了北京奥林匹克森林公园的植物景观生态规划，营造出一个能体现地带性植物基本特点，并具备良好的生态功能的森林公园植物景观。

本刊特约编辑尹豪副教授主持了詹姆斯·希契莫夫教授与董丽教授的访谈对话，通过2位教授的思想交流与碰撞，我们了解到当下城市建设中生态种植设计有待解决的一些研究点或研究方向。启示我们，在以后的科研、教学或实践中，找准自己的研究点，切实地为解决城市环境下的生态种植设计提供有效的理论指导和技术支撑。

LA：《风景园林》

James： 詹姆斯·希契莫夫

DONG： 董丽

LA：James 教授您的设计是很自然的设计风格。外行人看来，在某种程度上好像没有设计。您能否与我们分享一下这种种植设计方法的内在逻辑？推行这种方法您需要跨越什么障碍？

James：自然式生态种植设计，虽然看起来好像是接近于自然，似乎是没有设计过的，但是好的自然式设计就是设计得没有痕迹。我的设计灵感来源于自然，以植物个体或组团在群落中重复出现为表现形式，我试图用大家所期望看到的色彩、结构和变换，来创造物种丰富、具有图案感与韵律，随着季节变换，能在很长的观赏季中呈现戏剧化变幻特征的植物景观。虽然这跟中国当前普遍的规则式种植有很大的不同，也显得野趣，但看着更为自然。正是这种在没有人为干扰下，戏剧化的自然演替吸引着越来越多的人，这种种植形式因此逐渐被大众所接受（图1）。

我非常看重世园会的这次机会，因为这个平台给了我一种可能性，让我来创造这种形式，然后来验证这种形式在中国的接受度。记得在6个月之前，我在国际学术期刊《城市林业与城市绿化》上，第一次看到来自中国的作者关注这类拟自然式生态种植形式是否能给北京大众带来不同的审美需求和感受。在仔细地阅读了这篇文章以后，我发现中国的民众对这种新型种植方式的反应，实际上跟西方的审美理念有高度的统一和吻合。因此我觉得，中西方在审美标准和生态需求方面或许并没有很大的差别。

LA：董教授，说到自然，其实中国传统就很自然，对于自然的理念，您认为它和英国的自然有着什么样的差别？您的见解是什么？是否可以给我们分享一些。

DONG：说到自然，这是一个很大的话题。如Hitchmough 教授所言，我觉得我们可以理解为，其中一种自然即“大自然的自然”，即天然的自然，比如园林中营造的meadow这种景观的形式，其实就是从大自然中借鉴和学习过来的，所以他希望他的设计没有痕迹，就像和自然是一样的；另一种自然，则可说是“人造的自然”，换而言之，是人类通过对大自然进行借鉴和提炼，在人工环境中重新建成的“自然”，它虽然并不是真的照搬原生的自然，但也确实遵循“虽由人作，宛自天开”的理念，这就是我们中国传统园林的“自然”，即非真正的大自然，却是学习自大自然的产物。所以我们中国传统就有“师法自然”，这种理念一直是中国传统造园的一个核心宗旨。但是在过去的几十年，我国在植物景观营造过程中走过一些弯路，过度强调人的视觉美，使得我们的城市环境失去了太多的自然的气息。我想这可能就是刚才Hitchmough教授所说的我们中国的种植设计都是规则式设计的缘故吧。不过，庆幸的是，如今我们正逐渐回归到正确的方向上来。所以我认为对这种自然设计理念和手法的再次探索，及其在城乡植物景观规划设计中的应用实践，是非常有意义的事情。

1 伦敦奥林匹克公园中人们对詹姆斯·希契莫夫设计的南非花园的高度认可People’s positive respond to the South African herbaceous planting community designed by James Hitchmough in London Olympic Park

2 自然式园艺景观私家花园打造“绿色生活”，詹姆斯·希契莫夫设计Enhanced nature-like private garden in August, designed by James Hitchmough

LA：因为2019世园会，我们相聚，本届主题“绿色生活，美丽家园”，请问2位教授如何理解这一主题。

James：在我看来，这个主题非常好、非常棒，也非常契合现代发展的趋势，对于我来说，可以以另外一种方式来理解这个主题，也就是园艺和生态的关系。如何将两者更好地交融，更好地重新去诠释它，做有生态意义、生态概念的园艺，并不失其园艺特征。在大多数的城市景观实践中，我们需要平衡生态和园艺的比重，力争创造取悦大众的景观环境（图2）。正如我们几分钟前谈到的规则式和自然式景观，的确，我们有时需要非常规则整齐的种植，但我们也可以尝试将更为自由的种植形式与规则式相结合。在某种程度上，我们期望借助世园会的这个展示平台，展示不那么传统的新的园艺趋势。

同时我也认为，如果我们希望生活环境变得更加美好，要有创新精神，也就是在我们的园艺里，我们要突破、要有新的途径，而新的途径是需要呈现给大家，让我们的游客、民众能够看见，我认为这个世园会将会是一个很好且很重要的平台，让设计师有机会能够带入一些新的理念，一些在西方和在我们的实践应用当中已经测试过的好的方式。也许，这些经验能够给中国的决策层、专业人士带来新的启发，并有助于逐渐改变人们对城市景观环境的看法和态度。

LA：董教授，这届世园会主题是“绿色生活，美好家园”，或许由于我们汉字的词隐含的意义会更多、更广泛、更丰富，对于我们这次园艺大会的主题，您是不是有着更多的理解？

DONG：我觉得此次园艺大会“绿色家园，美好生活”的主题，提得非常好。正如你所说，中文每个字、每个词背后的含义非常广泛，因为是园艺大会，当我们看到“绿色”时，可能首先会想到作为颜色本身的绿色， 对于我们植物景观营造等行业的从业者来说，则会很自然地引申为，“绿色”就是以植物为主导，让我们生活、工作的环境更为美好。但其实“绿色生活”不仅仅限于上述的狭义“绿色”概念，其更加宽广的含义首先应该是体现一种理念，这种理念促使我们对人与自然关系进行重新认识，体现在人类必须热爱自然、尊重自然、保护自然，才能最终与自然和谐发展。实践中，则不仅要让自然融入我们的生活环境、生产空间里面，更要注重我们生产生活方式的转变，包括对自然资源的节约，环境友好的生产方式等等。所以这个“绿色生活”的理念和实践应该融入到我们生活、生产的方方面面，才能称得上是“美好生活”。

LA：James教授，英国的花展很多，切尔西花展享誉世界，英国花展对民众的吸引力主要体现在哪些方面？对改变民众生活的影响有多大？

James：在我看来这是一个非常有趣的问题。我想，首先要说的是中国和英国社会文化的基础不同，因为在英国每个人几乎都有自己的私家花园，所以可以说，英国的民众和花展的潜在关系更为密切。而在中国，也许这一点是最大的差别。当我们讲到切尔西花展对于社会效应方面的影响，我想应该先从它的功能效应来提及。首先作为一个花展，它主要是一个展示园艺多样性的平台，是一个供应商与买家面对面接触和交流的机会。切尔西花展更多的是展示英国作为园艺大国，在园艺上坚持不断地推陈出新，将新的好的产品源源不断地推向市场。切尔西花展的游客们其实就是自己花园的设计师，他／她们看见心仪的花卉就可以买回家，或在商家的网站上购买，并种植在他们的私家花园里。今天的英国，你可以足不出户地在自家的电脑上购买大约80 000种不同的植物品种及其园艺变种。英国的苗圃会根据市场需求，不断地挖掘有景观价值的新的野外品种，研发抗性强、观赏性强的园艺品种。然后这个市场的链条就形成了，作为切尔西花展来说，它是一个平台，是一个联系每一个花园、每一个在英国爱好园艺的个体和产业链的纽带，所以我认为在中国，2019北京世园会，也会有类似的这种社会效应，只是中国可能刚刚开始，在未来的话，我相信北京世园会也会像切尔西花展一样，发挥它强大的社会效应，它的功能性也会在中国逐渐体现。

因为在中国，百姓大多数没有私家花园，所以我认为更多的关注应该是中国的公共空间，思考这些公共绿地是否能承载人与园艺亲密接触的社会功能。比如在大面积单一树种种植或林地景观下层及林缘，应该有更为丰富的种植；在居住区环境设计中，应该有更为多样的品种和丰富的种植结构。北京需要更多季相变化、更多色彩、更多种植形式、更丰富的种植结构，需要最大化地发挥城市公共空间的多功能性。

LA：其实说到园林园艺展，中国这几年来也在不断地举办很多的园林园艺展，也在切实地改变着我们的生活，也在推进着社会的发展，董教授，您认为就中国的园林园艺展的发展，从目前来看，我们还需要如何更好地服务于大众？或更好地改变民众的生活？

DONG：其实中国有着非常悠久的园艺历史，但可能现代语境下的园艺展，我们不如英国那么强，像切尔西花展那么长历史的园艺展我们确实没有，然而改革开放之后这些年来，国内园林园艺展之多是有目共睹的，尽管展览过程中也曾出现过各种各样的问题，但是我们很高兴地看到这些问题在改变。实际上，这些园林园艺展迄今为止已经对我们产业、行业的发展以及民众对园艺的认识都起到了很大的促进作用。此次世园会的园艺展因其级别较高，首先政府层面就给予了高度重视。而借助这次展览将广泛展现世界上园艺发达国家和地区的园艺成果，这意味着此次园艺展必定会给我们带来从理念、技术及产品的全方位的影响；另一方面，此次园艺展的成果，不仅限于建立了一个大展园，布置了很多今后能给我们带来直接影响的实用性成果，也包括依托于这次展览组织机构在社会上举办的各类活动，非常丰富，比如这次请大师们到学校来举办讲座，还有今天的电视台采访，这些都对全社会在园艺、自然、生态环境等方面的认识有重要的促进作用。我相信未来这次世园会的成果不只会对政府、对公众、对我们专业人员都将产生积极的影响，而且肯定会持续产生更多的成果。伴随着这些成果的产生，园艺会让民众的生活环境、生产空间都越来越好。

3詹姆斯·希契莫夫为汤姆·斯图尔特-史密斯设计的北美的草花生态群落真正呈现了鸟语花香的景象North American herbaceous vegetation in Tom Stuart-Smith Garden attracts diverse of wildlife all year round,designed by James Hitchmough

LA：“鸟语花香”是一个描绘美好环境的词，是人人向往的境地。近些年，北京加大了环境的治理工作，正在一步一步朝向这个美好愿望前行。请2位教授从专业角度给些建议，让市民更多地听到窗外的鸟鸣，嗅到飘入室内的花香。

James：在“鸟语花香”里，我今天想先谈谈“鸟语”。作为“鸟语”来说，其实讲的是生物多样性的问题。北京的城市空间尺度非常巨大， 城市建设密度也很大，城市范围内仅有少数的空间能为个别鸟类提供栖息环境。在西欧国家的城市里，我们有很多私家花园，这些花园作为城市二级绿地，为野生动物提供栖息环境。正因为西方国家不同的土地性质、尺度比例和拥有无数能支持昆虫和鸟类的私家花园，我们才能在西方城市中看到比中国城市里丰富得多的鸟类品种。

其实，有很多条途径可以改变中国城市生物多样性不足的现状。其中，最行之有效的方法之一是在城市范围内构建更为复杂且丰富的种植结构。实际上在不同的冠层层面上都可以变得更加复杂，地被层也可以有丰富的结构。北京有非常大的植树面积，但是这些树绝大多数都相对来说比较年轻，且品种单一。如果北京的城市绿化能够选用更为丰富的乔灌草品种，而且在空间层次上考虑更为丰富且多样的结构来营建，北京将能支持更多的生物。其次，从整体的城市规划来看，在新的规划理念上，西方认为，把周围的自然环境延伸渗透进入城市空间，城市和自然环境共融发展是最理想的生态城市建设模型。也就是说在北京现有的城市环境里面，创建一些由城郊进入城市的廊道空间；如果是新区规划，尽量保留一部分现状自然／半自然绿地。这些人为创建的和自然保护的绿色廊道空间将能够帮助生物通行，支持生物栖息。生活在城市中的人们也就有了感受“鸟语花香”这种城市体验的机会（图3）。

LA：说到“鸟语花香”，董教授，其实在前几天刚刚结束的第3届风景园林植物与人居环境建设论坛上，您就在主旨报告上提起过这个美好的愿景，据我所知，这些年来您也在进行积极的探索和研究，那么我们想听取一下您在这些方面的一些深入的思考和专业化的成果研究。

DONG：的确，“鸟语花香”是我们每个人梦想的生活环境。其实我们人类曾经就是生活在这样的环境里，如今再提出这种梦想和愿景，或许就跟我们中间走了一段弯路有关，我们的确缺失了这样的环境。正如Hitchmough教授所言，在北京和其他的中国大城市中，这样的问题或许更加突出，因为我们的城市面积巨大，城市人口也更为密集，加上在之前的生态环境建设中存在的问题造成生物多样性降低、鸟类栖息地不足，导致我们的城市缺乏“鸟语花香”的美丽环境。改变这种状况，需要我们做什么？我们又能做什么？作为植物景观规划设计的从业者，我想说植物景观可以规划设计，鸟类却无法规划设计，我们能做的是去规划设计良好的植物景观，给鸟类和其他动物提供良好的栖息环境，才能把它们吸引来并且留下来。所以提到生物多样性，我觉得植物要先行，其中最关键的是植物的多样性以及植物景观的多样性。植物的多样性简单地说就是种类上的多样性，物种的丰富度，能够提供鸟类所需求的食源、筑巢、繁殖等栖息环境。而植物景观的多样性同样也非常重要，不同类型的植物配置结构都是鸟类栖息地必不可少的要素，哪些鸟类需要复层混交的种植结构，哪些鸟类需要滩涂湿地等，都需要植物景观采取针对性的设计策略。当然在这之上还有更为重要的层面，即绿地布局的合理性，包括廊道、斑块等绿地类型及其合理的格局关系。这些方面都做到了，才能为吸引更多鸟类或营造生物多样性更丰富的环境提供基础。归根结底，适宜的人居环境是要人与自然和谐共处。我们的目的不仅仅是要让动物都来，我们人类也生活在城市环境中，城市也理应是人的最佳生存空间，所以人与自然共融才是我们追求的最终目标。

LA：2位都是植物景观规划设计方面研究的专家，2位可否就这么多年来的科研、教学抑或是实践项目，来谈一谈植物景观规划设计对于城市人居环境的改善？

James：我认为种植设计的形式相对来说不那么重要，如何通过植物景观规划设计将不同的视觉和空间体验传递给大家，是更为有趣且有意义的方面。人们在城市环境中需要的是一种季节变化的感觉，而这一切是通过花开花落或者叶片的颜色变化等来实现的，这意味着人们期望身边总会有一些有趣的和刺激感官的事情发生。其中的关键是如何找到合适的设计途径，满足人们在各个阶段的审美需求（图4、5）。

DONG：植物景观对城市人居环境的改善是多方面的，市民们最能感同身受的比如绿树红花使我们的城市人居环境更为优美，比如夏天去公园可以有一个阴凉舒适的休憩游览的空间。当然，植物也发挥着很多我们不一定能看到或者意识到的各种效益。总体上，除了美化环境，植物对城市人居环境的重要意义还体现在改善我们的生态效益上，如降温、防护、净化空气、隔离噪声、为其他动物等提供栖息环境等，同时植物也具有重要的文化意义，是地域性文化传承的载体，这种文化的意义对市民的作用可能是潜移默化的，但的确是存在的。

LA：在具体的实践项目中，2位都曾做过大型城市公园的生态种植设计，James教授做过2012年伦敦奥林匹克公园的种植设计，董教授做过2008年北京奥林匹克森林公园的景观生态规划，2位可否分别谈一谈当时实践的一些基本生态学理论指导思想或者当时遇到的瓶颈以及一些解决措施？

James：我长期致力于研究如何运用生态学原理，构建长期稳定的植物群落，探索分析群落中不同植物间的相互竞争关系，以及这些种间竞争是如何影响群落稳定性的。我们用来获得最佳结果的杠杆常常是精心的植物选择和合理的植物群落的设计，尽量减少优势物种对其相邻物种的抑制作用（通常，我会通过在设计中降低这些优势物种的使用密度来减少影响）。其次，使用相对瘠薄的土壤来减缓物种的生长速率，以减少群落中的种间竞争。但是，有些客户想要快速见到效果，这就产生了新的问题：如果追求快速见效，就无法在群落建立的初期有效控制种间竞争；如果要实现长期的群落稳定性，就不能在建立初期快速产生效果（图6、7）。

DONG：我是2005年受邀进入北京奥林匹克森林公园总体规划团队的，除了担任团队专家成员外，具体承担了奥森的植物景观生态规划的任务。应该说一个700多hm2、如此巨大，且被称为是“森林公园”的项目，当时对我们是有挑战的。经过思考,我认为既然叫“森林”公园，植物景观营造应该是这个公园最重要的内容，而且植物景观至少应该满足2点：一是外貌像森林。森林的特点是什么？像哪里的森林？如何做到像森林？首先森林的特点当然是自然，其二当然是像这个地带的森林。其三如何做到像森林，我们引入近自然园林的设计理念，引入了“自然度”的概念，研究了北京地区不同“自然度”条件下植被的构成特征，为森林公园植物景观规划设计奠定基础。第二个大的方面是具备一点森林的功能。我们不敢说城市里人工建造这么一块绿地要能发挥像真正的自然界的森林一样的功能，但是我们至少要发挥部分的功能，而森林最重要的功能是什么？就是栖息地的功能。所以当时2005年我们就从栖息需求的角度研究了北京地带性的动物对于植物的需求，当然是一个很初步的研究，以此作为我们选择植物的依据之一。当然还要考虑很多其他方面，包括适应性、生态效益及文化性等等。应该说，当初的这些研究都没有白做，如今森林公园的确在动物，尤其是鸟类栖息地方面发挥了巨大的作用，目前已经发现了200多种鸟类在此活动（图8～15）。

4 伦敦奥林匹克公园坡面草花群落设计，詹姆斯·希契莫夫设计Designed vegetation on slope in London Olympic Park,designed by James Hitchmough

LA：James教授，您这次2019北京世园会项目的设计理念是什么？设计的重点突出表现在哪些方面？跟以往项目相比特别之处是什么？有没有遇到什么难题？

James：我觉得最大的不同就是世园会是一个很大尺度的设计，将引来数量巨大的游客。我想我所有之前的设计都没有这样的经历，迎接大约1 500～1 600万游客的到访。这个数量级的游客总量给了我们一个非常棒的机会，来呈现不同的设计理念和创新的设计途径。

我们这个花园的主题是新丝绸之路，灵感源自古丝绸之路，植物的选择和平面布局也是遵从古丝绸之路的路径，从东向西穿过中国干燥的中部草原，延伸至欧洲。花园的植被是基于植物群落的概念设计的。这些设计反映了植物在自然栖息环境的组合方式。在我们的花园里营造了5个独特的栖息环境类型。

对于在中国做科研和项目来说，我们发现可用植物品种在中国的商业供应是非常有限的，尤其在植物群落的设计当中，我们并不能很容易地在市场上找到非常合适的种苗。所以，在我看来可能未来中国园艺发展的巨大瓶颈之一就是植物材料的商业供应（图16）。在明天（2017年12月2日）下午的大师论坛中，我将详细说明适合大量商业供应的本土和非本土物种及其巨大的挖掘潜力。植物材料商业供应的匮乏将是生态植物群落设计推广的最大阻碍。

中国应该试图去建立和发展一个景观设计、园艺及苗圃产业相结合的产业链，一个生机勃勃、一个有创造力的产业联盟，共同致力于研发和应用多样性的植物品种。中国是世界上自然植物材料最丰富的国家，也是文化多元化的国家，如果在未来能将这种多元化的特质发散到园艺中，发散到种植设计领域，将会带来非常激动人心的改变。

5牛津植物园欧亚生态草花群落，詹姆斯·希契莫夫设计Eurasian mix in Oxford Botanical Garden, designed by James Hitchmough

LA：董教授，植物材料肯定是花园设计的最重要的一个因素，我们有很多邀请来的国外设计大师为我们奉献出他们很好的设计思想，为我们奉献精彩的园子，对他们的设计、他们的作品，您从专业的角度上有着怎样的建议，对他们将来园子的实践以及带给我们生活的改变，您有着怎样的期待？

DONG：借助于这次世园会，把国际知名的设计师请过来，我想其目的就是为了让国人来学习。“他山之石，可以攻玉”，发达国家实践过的一些先进的理念和设计手法，对于我们在快速城市化进程中的城市建设确实有很重要的借鉴意义。至于设计园子，我觉得大师们来到这里所面临的挑战中，最大的问题可能仍然是植物材料。植物景观设计有一个根本性的原则，就是因地制宜。设计师必须使用在当地的自然环境与气候条件下能够成活且长势良好的植物，才能实现其设计理念或者设计思想。而我们园林植物材料的匮乏对他们可能会是一个巨大的挑战。中国是世界园林之母，如之前所说，我们是世界上非常重要的观赏植物资源聚集的地区，但我们也的的确确在植物资源开发和植物产业发展等方面还非常不足，所以要实现大师的好的设计理念，植物材料将是一大限制。因此无论这些园子最终通过何种方法建成，我希望借鉴他们这些设计理念、设计手法，以及呈现出来的成果，这不仅是给我们提供了一个学习的机会，也期待对我们的植物产业能有一定的推动作用。当然我也期待着这些世界各地的优秀设计师借着这次契机，加深对中国传统文化、中国传统园林设计理念，对我们古人在人与自然关系处理方面的智慧的了解，将我们中国传统文化中的精华向世界传播。所以说，展会其实是一个双向的过程，我们向他人学习，同时也借此传播我们优秀的传统文化，这是我期待的另一个方面。

LA：通过刚才的介绍，我也了解到James教授，您是温带及地中海地区气候环境下非常权威的生态草本植物群落专家，董教授您曾经也研究过北京野生花卉在城市中的景观应用，那么我想问一下2位教授，对于草甸型景观在北京地区的应用持怎样的观点或态度？会和别的地区有哪些不同或者说存在哪些难点？

James：地处北纬40o左右的北京，正处于暖季型和冷季型草甸的过渡地带。身在北京的人似乎都认为北京的气候对植物选择和生长来说是具有很大挑战的，但实际上，放眼全球，北京的气候状况在全世界范围内是很普遍的。例如，美国中南部的大部分地区与中国东北地区的气候环境非常相似。因此，首先要寻找和研究非常适合北京气候的本土及非本土植物。当然，这需要大量的科研工作者的努力，不成体系的间断性工作是远远不够的。在全球气候变化的大背景下，应该根据北京气候变化的趋势，制定一个10～20年的计划。

DONG：无论是草甸型景观（我们以前可能叫野花草地），还是其他任何一种植物景观的形式，我认为在设计中都应因地制宜地采用。我们国家过去这些年来在植物景观营造方面出现的最大的问题就是跟风，哪一种植物形式大家觉得好，或者领导觉得好，一窝蜂不管东西南北，不管什么功能的绿地，都去照搬，这是我最担心的。没有哪一种植物景观的形式是错误的，只有设计师用错了地方。所以，我建议设计师对于所谓的草甸型景观同样持以科学谨慎的态度。

LA：我们都知道，生态学思想是指导当下城市景观设计的重要指导思想，2位也都致力于生态城市中种植设计的相关理论和方法的研究，那么2位教授可否就自己在生态种植方向上的研究给我们一些介绍？

James：我研究的重心是建立极具视觉吸引力，且能保持长期观赏效应的多年生生态草本植物群落。同时，我研究景观心理学，并试图通过拟自然式的设计思路，让更多的人能接受并喜欢上这种没有设计痕迹的新自然主义设计。我们的研究和实践经验表明，如果我们能成功建立色彩丰富艳丽且观赏周期很长的草花群落，即便那些曾经不偏爱这种种植形式的人，最终也会转而接受认可，并给予很高的评价。因此，可以说我工作的一部分是不断探索如何创造和维护这类植物群落，而另一部分是通过环境心理学的研究方法来探索人们对这种种植方式的阶段性反应（图17）。

DONG：我目前主要的研究领域就是植物景观的生态功能，包括不同尺度上植物材料的选择和配置方式，在生态功能方面更为优良，比如调节城市局地及微气候功能，净化空气颗粒物的功能，也包括作为鸟类栖息地的功能。当然，我也在很长一段时间都在致力于地域性植物景观特征的研究，希望这些研究能为我们植物景观设计提供切实的理论支撑。

LA：我们都知道，北京的气候、土壤等环境要素和英国相比差异还是很大的，James教授您曾经尝试将生态草本植物群落研究应用于北京市吗？那您在这次2019世园会的生态种植设计中，有遇到瓶颈吗？您觉得是什么原因造成的呢？您是如何解决的？

6 詹姆斯·希契莫夫长期致力于研究自然式生态群落中植物间的竞争关系James Hitchmough’s research focus is to explore the competition between plants for long-term compositon

James：通过考察研究北京及周边地区中低海拔的自然植被生长情况，并对比与北京气候条件相类似的世界其他地区的景观特征，可以很好地了解和应对北京目前的气候挑战。北京的自然气候条件并不是独一无二的，我考察了全世界很多地方，遍布各大洲，所以我能很好地把这些气候相似的地点联系起来，作为在北京设计生态植物群落的参考点（图18）。

LA：通过这次世园会的实践，请问James教授您对于生态种植设计有没有一些新的看法和见解？

James：我们现在很难对整个世园会发表评论，但对于汤姆和我设计的展园来说，我们希望创造一个新颖独特，但是充满趣味、色彩艳丽，具有强烈自然景观特征的花园。我希望在2019年能有一位中国博士生与我一起工作，采访世园会的参观者，了解他们对世园会不同植被类型 （包括我们的花园）的看法。

LA：最后，请2位教授谈谈对于2019北京世园会的期望或寄语？

James：我在此期望2019北京世界园艺博览会能取得空前巨大的成功，我也期望我们的花园能取得巨大的成功，受到大家的喜爱。

DONG：我希望2019世园会不仅会议本身能够取得巨大的成功，也真切地期待着这次会议及其相关的各类活动能够切实影响到我们国家的产业，影响到我们大众的生活。归根结底，我们还是需要给大众呈现最优质的园艺产品，才能够改变我们的生活，所以我期待着这次会议能够在这2方面都对我们国家起到很好的促进作用。

致谢：感谢王一兰前期准备采访内容。

注释：

图1～7，16～18 由詹姆斯·希契莫夫与杭烨提供，图8，10～12，14、15 由韩晶摄；图9、13由蔡妤摄。

录音整理：方小雨

翻译：万静柯

校对：王晞月

（编辑/张雯娟）

Professor James Hitchmough proposed the theory of sustainable plant communities design with ecological concept, and completed the planting design in 20hm2of 2012 London Olympic Park.The whole design was based on planting design of herbaceous vegetation communities according to ecology, and the concept “ecological skin”came into being. Professor DONG Li introduced the concept of “natural degree” and “similar to the natural landscape”, on the basis of studying characteristics of zonal vegetation, and successfully hosted plant landscape ecological planning of the Beijing Olympic Forest Park which created the basic characteristics of zonal plant with good ecological function of forest park plant landscape.

James’ Dialogue with DONG was hosted by YIN Hao, the contributing editor of this Journal and associate professor. Thanks to the in-depth idea exchange and collision of the two professors,we’ve learned about some research directions and focuses remaining to be solved of ecological planting design in current urban construction,which pointed and lightened the way ahead of us.We should discover our own directions in later researches, practice or teaching, and practically provide effective theoretical guidance and technical support for further ecological planting design of urban environment.

LA:Landscape ArchitectureJournal

James: James Hitchmough

DONG: DONG Li

LA: Prof. James, your design is so natural that there isn’t any sign of design for a layman. Can you share us the inner logics in such approaches? What difficulties do you have to overcome in order to put it into force?

James: Some of the vegetation that I make does look some degree un-designed, if you are not familiar with looking at nature-like vegetation. In Chinese Landscape Architecture, most of plantings have been done in large blocks and that means have very ordered appearance. While my work tends to use either small groups or individuals repeated over and over again. So it is a different look, it does look more wild, does look more natural. At the same time it is designed to be beautiful, too. There are patterns and rhythms in it and most importantly it is often very flower rich and colorful over a long season on interest. It is this drama which makes it acceptable to many people (Fig. 1).

One of the reason that I was really interested in doing the Beijing Expo 2019 was to see how Chinese people respond when they see a whole garden designed according to nature-like principles. Very recently, I think about 6 months ago, the first scientific paper was published in an international academic journalUrban Forestry and Urban Greeningon what Chinese people think of meadows in Beijing. When you read this its clear that European and Chinese people share some similar views towards meadows and so perhaps we are not so different after all.

LA: When it comes to “nature”, in fact,Chinese tradition is natural, but professor DONG, as for the concept of nature, in your opinion, what kind of difference between Chinaand Britain ? Can you share with us?

DONG: When it comes to the word “nature”,it is a large topic. As professor Hitchmough said,I think we can classify it into two levels, so one is“nature of the Nature”, that is, “natural nature”,such as this kind of form “meadow” designed in landscape, it is actually imitated from the Nature,thus he hopes that his design looks traceless just like the real Nature; the other is “man-made nature”, in other words, it is the one which human beings learn from the Nature and use the Nature for reference to create it in man-made environment. Although it doesn’t really copy the original Nature, it indeed abides by the concept “Though it is made by man,it seems like being created by the Nature”, which is the nature expressed in our traditional Chinese garden. And it is not the real Nature, but the results by imitating it. Therefore, there is the concept“Learning from the Nature.” And it is the core aim in traditional Chinese garden. However, in the past few decades, China has taken some detours in the process of landscape planting construction,overemphasizing the human’s visual beauty, which has deprived much natural sense of our urban environment. I think this is the reason why professor Hitchmough said that Chinese planting design is in a regular way. Fortunately, we are now returning to the right direction, so I think it is very meaningful to explore this natural design idea and technique once more, and to apply them in the practice of rural and urban landscape planning design.

LA: We are together here for the Beijing Expo 2019. The theme of this expo is “Green Life, Good Home”. What’s your opinion?

James: Oh, I think it is fantastic opportunity to actually make some connections between these ideas. I think particularly the idea of having horticulture which becomes more ecological, at the same time, keeping its horticulture character.In most cases in cities, you need to maintain a balance between ecological and horticulture ideas to produce landscapes which perhaps everyone can really enjoy (Fig. 2). You asked me a few minutes ago about the problem of disorder and perceptions of messiness in my plantings. In some situations,you do need some planting which is more ordered,but this can be blended in with more disordered plantings, and to some degree this is what we will do at the Expo.

I think that it is really important when you have something like the Expo to exposes people to a very wide range of different and creative ideas about how plants can be used in urban places. And I think the Expo is going to have a really excellent opportunity to show people things and ideas they haven’t seen before, or are not very familiar with. Perhaps these types of experiences will gradually contribute to changing people’s attitudes to how things could look in cities. I think that is something we need to be better at than we are doing at present.

LA: Professor DONG, the theme of this Beijing Expo 2019 is “Green Life, Good Home”, perhaps because the meanings of our Chinese characters are more various, more extensive and more plentiful, do you have more understanding of this theme?

DONG: I think the theme “Green Life, Good Home” proposed in this expo is great. As you said,the potential meaning of every word in Chinese is extensive, for it is horticultural congress, so when we see the word “green”, we will firstly think it is a kind of color, but as a member working in landscape planting construction and other industries, we will naturally extended it to the meaning that “greenness”is dominated by plants making our life and work environment better. But actually “green life” is not limited in narrow meanings above mentioned, and its extensive meaning firstly should be expressed as a kind of concept which can contribute to our new understanding of the relationship between human beings and the Nature, and it is expressed by loving,respecting and protecting the Nature, so that we can develop with it harmoniously. In practice, we not only bring the Nature into our life environment and space we are living in, but also change our way of producing and living, including saving natural resources, using environment friendly production methods and so on. Well, only the concept and practice of “green life” should be introduced to every aspects of our life and production can it be real “wonderful life”.

7 由詹姆斯·希契莫夫设计的伦敦奥林匹克公园林缘生态景观群落Woodland edge ecological planting community design in London Olympic Park done by James Hitchmough

LA: Professor James, as I know, there are various flower shows in the UK, and Chelsea Flower Show is especially well known worldwide.What aspects does British flower show attract the public? And how many effects does it have on people's life?

James: Yes, this is an interesting question. I think there is a big fundamental difference between China and Britain in that most British people have access to their own private gardens, so that means that they have very close relationship potentially with flower show. This is because they go to the flower show, which acts as a “shop window” they can see really interesting plants, they can buy them or they can buy them after the flower show, they put them in their garden. So they have this immediate opportunity to establish a long term connection with flowers. This is obviously, what the Chelsea Flower Show is about, it is all about show casing diversity. The British garden flora is very very big, you can buy online about 80,000 different species and cultivars of plants, today from your computer.And all the time, there are nurseries selling new plants originating from both the wild and from within horticulture to the people who want to use these in their gardens. And that drives froward changing diversity all the time. So in terms of Expo, because of these differences the Expo is a slightly different experience.But I think what will happen in time is these relationship will also develop very strongly in China, too.

Because in China people largely don’t have their own private garden.I think it makes it more important that public space has got some of these experiences within it. So instead of having very large scale of trees and woodland, you really also need to have lots of detailed plantings in contexts such as for example in situations like housing developments. You need to have a lot of seasonal change, a lot of colours and all the things that you otherwise get in the garden have really to be in maximizing the function of urban public space.

LA: In fact, when it comes to garden and horticulture exposition,China has been holding a lot of exhibitions in recent years, which is also changing our life and promoting the development of society.Professor DONG, how do you think China’s horticultural expos can better serve the public or change people’s life?

DONG: In fact China has a long history of gardening, but probably as for the context of modern horticultural exposition, China is not as good as Britain, because China do not have long history of horticultural exposition like the Chelsea Flower Show. However, after the reform and opening up,we have seen that there have been numerous horticultural expositions in china over the years. Although there are various problems in the process of holding expos, we are glad to see these problems are changing. In fact, until now these shows have played a major role in promoting the development of our industry and people’s knowledge of horticulture. Government attaches great importance to the horticultural exposition because of its high level.On one hand, by doing this, achievements of the exposition in developed countries and regions in the world will be widely presented, which means that it is bound to affect us from all aspects including its concept, technology and products. On the other hand, its achievements are not only limited in creating the exposition and decorating many practical achievements which can have direct in fluence on us in the future, but also include the varieties of activities held in society and relying on exposition organizations are plentiful,for example, this time we invite masters to our university for holding lectures and today’s TV interview, all of these have contributed to promote the whole society’s understanding of gardening, nature and ecological environment. I believe in the future, the achievements of the exposition will not only have positive effects on the public, government and professionals, but there will be more and constant achievements. Along with these, gardening will make people’s living environment and production space better and better.

8 北京奥林匹克森林公园植物景观The Plant landscape of Beijing Olympic Forest Park

LA: The “birds and the whole biodiversity thing” depicts a beautiful environment with birds’ twittering and fragrance of flowers, an ideal scene for everyone. In recent years, Beijing has stepped up its efforts to improve environment, and is moving forward this beautiful vision. Can you give us some advices from the professional view in order to make citizens hear birds’ twitter outside windows and smell the fragrance of flowers entering their door?

James: I might start by talking a little bit about birds and the whole biodiversity thing. One of the issues in Beijing is that it is so enormous, so what happens nature wise in Beijing is often a function of its size. Because Beijing is so large, and because it is quite dense, what this means is it only has certain habitats within the city which would attract certain sorts of birds. In western European cities, people have a lot of gardens and these gardens serve as secondary function of providing habitats for wildlife. So you tend to see greater diversity of bird species typically in the European city than you do in the Chinese cities. And that’s simply because of the different land-use, scale and the huge area of gardens that support a lot of insects and birds.

There are a number of ways as to how we can improve the animal biodiversity of Chinese Cities. One of the most obvious ways is to try to build in more complexity in some of the structure plantings within the city. Beijing has the very large areas of tree plantings. But in great deal of them are: a) quite young; b) often the same species. If there is more diversity of species, and you are more spatially complex, then you will support more animal life. That’s the first thing I think. I think the second thing is some of the issues are best addressed by really large scale planning where you need to have more green corridors running into the city and when land is developed, try to maintain the percentage of these so that these nature conservation corridors can deliver some of those experiences and opportunities (Fig. 3).

LA: Speaking of “birds and the whole biodiversity thing”, Professor DONG, you just mentioned this beautiful vision at the Third Forum on Landscape Plants and Human Settlement Construction several days ago. As far as I know, you have energetically explored and researched these years, so please tell us some of your achievements through deep thinking and professional researching.

DONG: Indeed, we expect the “birds and the whole biodiversity thing”. Actually, human beings used to live in environment like that. Today, I put forward this dream and vision again, which may be related to the fact that we took wrong path in the past so that we have lost this kind of environment.Exactly as what Professor Hitchmough has said,it’s more obvious in Beijing and other big cities in China. With large area, dense population and lower biodiversity caused by the problems of ecological environment construction, our city lacks beautiful environment just like the environment with the scene that “birds twitter and flowers bloom with fragrance”. To change this situation, what should we do and what we can do? As a plant landscape planner and designer, I have to say that plant landscape can be planned and designed, but birds can’t. What we can do is to plan and design a good plant landscape to provide a good habitat for birds and other animals to live in. Only in this way can we attract them and make them settle down. So when it refers to biodiversity, plants should be thought first, because the key is to keep the diversity of plants and plant landscape. Brie fly, the diversity of plant is the variety and richness of species, which can provide a habitat for birds where they can eat, nest and breed. Besides, the diversity of plant landscape is also very important. Different types of plant con figuration are the indispensable elements in birds’ habitat. Which birds need multilayer and complex plantation structure, and which birds need tidal flat wetland, these are the questions needed to be solved specifically. Of course, there is one more important aspect, that is, the rationality of green space layout which includes the types of green spaces, such as corridors and patches, and their rational relationship pattern. Only achieving all above-mentioned can we lay a foundation to attract more birds and build the environment where biodiversity is more. Ultimately, the optimal human settlement is where human and the nature live in harmony. Our purposes are not only to attract animals, but also for ourselves’ living, that is, we live in city, and city is also supposed to be an optimal living space for human beings, so harmonious existence between human beings and the nature is our ultimate purpose.

LA: Both of you are experts in the field of plant landscape planning and design,based on your research, teaching or practice projects, could you talk about how important and what the improvement of planting design to our urban living environment is?

James: I think the form of the planting design is less important that the delivery of experiences to people that are interesting and meaningful. What people need in urban environments is a sense of seasonal change, and a series of events be it through flowering or leaf colour change which means there is always something interesting and stimulating happening. The trick is how to provide this in ways that really work for the people in question (Fig. 4, 5).

DONG: The improvement of plant landscape for unban residual environment is expressed in all aspects. And the most obvious situation citizens can feel is that green trees and various flowers make unban residual environment more beautiful, for example, when they relax in parks in summer, they can find shady and comfortable space for their rest and visiting. Of course, plants can produce many benefits which we don’t necessarily see or realize.Overall, apart from beautifying environment, the signi ficance of plants to unban residual environment is also embodied in improving our ecological benefits, such as cooling temperature, defense and protection, purifying air, isolating noises, and providing habitats for other animals. Meanwhile,plants also have important cultural signi ficance that they are the carrier of regional culture inheritance,and this kind of significance may be have an in fluence on citizens, but it does have.

LA: In the practices of specific projects,both of you had undertaken the ecological planting design of large city park. Professor James was the planting designer for 2012 London Olympic Park, and professor DONG designed the ecological landscape planting for 2008 Beijing Olympic Forest Park. Could you respectively talk about some of the guiding ecology theories in your work or have you encountered any troubles and how they were settled?

James: The key ecological theories in my work are generally how plants compete with one another and how this effects the long-term composition of those plantings. The levers we use to get the best outcomes are often plant selection and design of plant communities to reduce the likelyhood of a vigorous species out competing its neighbours (these species are used at low densities to reduce these effects), and secondly the use of low nutrient soils to slow down the growth of species to reduce competitive effects. But then of course this causes problems with clients who want very rapid growth, which is something you cannot have whilst at the same time minimising competitive loss (Fig. 6, 7).

DONG: I was invited to participate in the team of overall planning of Beijing Olympic Forest Park in 2005, and apart from being an expert member in the team, I was also engaged in the task of plant landscape ecological planning of Beijing Olympic Forest Park. It should be said that the project which is in such a huge scale more than 700 hm2and called “forest park” is a big challenge to us. Through thinking it over at that time, I think now that it is called “forest park”,the construction of plant landscape in this park should be the most important content, and plant landscape should meet at least two points: the first point is that it should look like forest. What are the features of forest? Which forest should it look like? How do we make it look like forest?The first feature of forest is naturalness, second is that it looks like forest in this zone, and the third is that how does it look like forest. We introduced the design concept of similar to the nature and natural degree, and we studied structure characteristics of vegetation under the condition of different natural degrees in Beijing region,which laid a foundation for plant landscape planning and design of forest park. The second point is that it should have some functions like real forest. We dare not say the patches of manbuilt green land in cities can have the function like the real forest in the nature, but at least we hope it can have part of functions, and what is the most important function of the forest? That’s habitat. So when in 2005 we studied the zonal animals’ demand for plants in Beijing from the point of view of habitat, of course, it was a very preliminary research and it is one of basis that we choose plants. Of course, many other aspects are also considered including adaptability, ecological bene fits, culture and so on. It should be said that these original studies are not in vain, now forest park indeed have played a huge role in animals and especially birds’ habitat, and currently there has appeared more than 200 kinds of birds flying here (Fig. 8-15).

LA: What is your design concept in the coming Beijing Expo 2019? What makes it a special project comparing with the previous projects? Have you encountered any problems in the whole process?

James: Well, in terms of what makes the Expo difference, one of the things is it is founded on a large scale and will have huge number of people come to it. I don’t think I’ve ever designed anything which would have 15～16 million people coming to look at it. This level of visitors means a fantastic opportunity to communicate some new or unfamiliar ideas.

Our garden the “New Silk Road” for the Expo is inspired by the idea of the Silk Route, crossing the dry central steppes of China from east to west.The vegetation for the garden is based upon the idea of designed plant communities. The design of these re flects the organization of plants in natural habitats. Within our garden there are essentially five distinctive designed habitats.

11～13 北京奥林匹克森林公园植物景观The Plant landscape of Beijing Olympic Forest Park

One of the things we have experienced when we has been designing plantings in China, and in particularly when we want to make plant communities,we have often struggled to find plant material commercially available for us to use. So I think this is a major additional difficulty in China (Fig. 16). I will speak more about this tomorrow afternoon at the designers conference about how both with native and non-native species the range of plants available is actually relatively small in relation to what could be available. And this does limit you when you are trying to design vegetation along community design principles.

14、15 北京奥林匹克森林公园植物景观The Plant landscape of Beijing Olympic Forest Park

One of the challenges for China is to develop a Landscape Architecture, Horticulture and nursery sector that is dynamic, creative and really wants to work with a diversity of plant materials. China is a very diverse place naturally and culturally,and it would be great to reflect that diversity in horticulture in the designed plant world.

LA: Professor DONG, plant material is definitely an important element in the design of garden. We have invited many famous foreign design masters to give their good design ideas and present their beautiful gardens. So as for their designs and works, what’s your suggestion in a professional way? And what’s your expectation of their practice of gardens? And what kind of changes it would bring to our life?

DONG: Through this exposition, many internationally famous designers are invited.I think its main purpose is to let domestic designers learn from them. “Foreign stones may serve to polish domestic jades”. Some of the advancing practiced theories and design methods in developed countries have important reference significance for the urban construction in our rapid urbanization process. As to designing gardens, I think the biggest challenge may still be plant materials. One of the fundamental principles of designing plant landscape is to adjust measures to local conditions. Designers must use the plants that can survive and grow well in local natural environment and weather conditions. Only in this way can they make their design philosophy or design thinking come true. Lacking of garden plant materials may be a big challenge for them.China is the mother of the world gardens. As what have been mentioned before, China is a very important area that enjoys rich resources of ornamental plants, but China is indeed not very suf ficient in plant resources exploitation and plant industry development. Therefore, the lack of plant materials will be a restriction to achieve the good design philosophies of design masters.So no matter how these gardens will be built eventually, I hope their design philosophies, design methods and the achievements would not only provide a learning opportunity for us, but also can promote our plant industry in some extent.Of course, I am also looking forward to that the excellent designers from other countries, through this opportunity, can have a deeper understanding of traditional Chinese culture and traditional Chinese design philosophy of gardens as well as a better understanding towards the wisdom of our ancestors that is shown in dealing with the relationship between them and the nature. I hope the essence of our traditional Chinese culture would be spread throughout the world. Therefore,exposition is indeed a two-way process, during which we learn from others and at the same time spread our excellent traditional culture. This is another aspect that I expect.

LA: Through the previous introduction,professor James, I learned that you are an authoritative expert in the design and management of extensive communities of nature-like herbaceous vegetation,and professor DONG you had carried out researches regarding the wild flower application in urban landscape of Beijing.So, I want to ask, you two, what do you think about the application of meadow landscape in Beijing area? What are the differences or difficulties comparing with that of other areas?

James: At around latitude 40oN Beijing is on the transition zone between warm season and cool season grasses; people in Beijing seem to think that there climate etc. is tough for plants, but of course the climate of Beijing is very common around the world. Much of the central southern regions of the USA for example are climatically very similar to North East China, so the big issue in Beijing is to identify plants that are really well suited to the Beijing climate. This requires an extensive research effort, not just a bit of work here and a bit of work here, but a 10-20 year plan in which the inevitability of large changes to the climate of Beijing is factored in.

DONG: Whether meadow landscape, what we may call wildflower meadow before, or the form of a kind of any other plants landscape, I think that in the design we should adjust measures to local conditions to adopt it. In past years the biggest problem of our country is following the trend in the aspect of plant landscape construction.No matter what kind of plant is admired by everyone or leaders, we will copy it in a rush regardless of what it is and what functions of green space have, which is my worry most. There is no fault form in plant landscape, but only designers use it in wrong place. So I suggest that designers should hold scienti fic and cautious attitude toward your so-called meadow landscape here.

LA: As we all know, ecology theory is one of the most important guiding thoughts for present urban landscape design, you two have also concentrated on relevant theories and methodologies of planting design in ecological city, so, could you give us some introduction of your own researches?

James: My research has centred around whether it is possible to maintain hyper-flowery perennial herbaceous vegetation in the long term, as a means of getting people who might not like the disorder of meadow like vegetation to buy in to this.Our research and practice experience shows that when meadow like vegetation is very colourful over a long season it can be valued even by people who would otherwise find it unaccpetably messy. So my work has partly been about how to make and maintain this type of vegetation and secondly exploring human respose to this through Environmental Psychology type methodologies (Fig. 17).

16 很多有价值的本土物种没有商业供应（此照片为内蒙古野外考察时拍摄）Lots of valuable native species are not available in market (this is a pic from field trip in Inner magolia)

17 城市人需要极具视觉吸引力，且能保持长期观赏效应的多年生草本植物群落Hyper-flowery and long-term perennial herbaceous vegetation is important to citizens

18 在剑桥植物园内使用本土及来自于气候环境极相似地区的植物Use native species and non-native species from climately similar areas to create vegetation in certain climate in Cambridge Botanical Garden, designed by James Hiychmough

DONG: At present, my major research is ecological functions of plant landscape, including the selection of plant materials and con figuration mode at different scale, for the purpose of making ecological functions more excellent, such as regulating the function of urban regions and micro climate, functions of purifying air particulate matter, and including as a function of bird habitat.Of course, for a very long time I was also working on the research of regional characteristics of plant landscape, hoping it can provide our plant landscape design with practical theory support.

LA: As we all know, the climate, soil condition and other environmental elements of Beijing vary a lot from that of Britain, Professor James, have you tried applying ecological herbaceous plant community to Beijing? Have you encountered bottlenecks in the planting design of the Beijing Expo 2019? Why and how did you settle them?

James: You can get a pretty good idea of how to get around the climatic challenges of Beijing by looking at what is growing naturally in the region at low to moderate altitudes and secondly by looking at the landscapes of the other parts of the world I referred to earlier that are very similar to Beijing.Beijing is not unique, I have travelled very extensively so I am connected to these other places as reference points (Fig. 18).

LA: Through the practice in this Beijing Expo 2019, do you have any new ideas and understandings about ecological planting design to share with us?

James: Its difficult to comment on the Expo as a whole but it terms of Tom and my parts, we hope to create a garden that will be very unfamiliar yet fascinating, quite strongly disordered and natural looking but also very colourful with a long season of positive seasonal change. I hope to have a Chinese Ph.D. student working with me by 2019 who will interview many visitors to gain an insight into what they think of the different vegetation types (including our garden) at the Expo.

LA: Finally, could you please talk about your expectations or wishes to the Beijing Expo 2019?

James: Yes, I hope the Beijing Expo 2019 is enormously successful and I also hope our design is enormously successful, too.

DONG: I not only hope that the Beijing Expo 2019 can succeed wonderfully, but also sincerely hope this exposition and its related activities can actually have influence on our national industry and public life. Ultimately, we need to present the best garden work to the public, and only in this way can we change our life. So I expect that this exposition can facilitate our country from the two above-mentioned aspects.

Acknowledgement:Thanks to WANG Yilan for her contribution to this interview during early preparation period.

Notes:

Fig. 1-7, 16-18 are provided by James Hitchmough and HANG Ye; Fig. 8, 10-12, 14, 15 are photographed by HAN Jing; Fig. 9, 13 are photographed by CAI Yu.