伦佐·皮亚诺访谈

孙晨光/SUN Chenguang

孙晨光（以下简称S）：谢谢您为我们提供了一次获得国际视野和学习不同知识的机会。事务所的每一个项目堪称经过细致设计的优秀作品。最近随着一些最新项目的落成，我想这也是一个合适的时机，能通过您更加直接地了解其中的思想，并和大家分享，这也能帮助我们进一步理解这些设计本身。

您为什么喜欢设计“公共建筑”或者说“公共结构”呢？

伦佐·皮亚诺（以下简称R）：这的确如此，实际上事务所80%的项目都是公共建筑。比如文化设施、音乐厅、剧院、图书馆等等。答案很简单，因为正是这些公共建筑，让我们的城市奇迹般地变得愈加美好。当你一个城市建造了一些很好的公共建筑的时候，那些供人们使用的空间把城市变成一个更加宜居的地方。并不是说公共建筑更加重要，但是比如当你精心设计一所大学的时候，就像我们的哥伦比亚大学项目（美国曼哈顿哥伦比亚大学新校区规划和建筑设计项目，2010年重新开始设计，目前正在施工——译者注）和亚眠项目（法国亚眠某规划和建筑设计项目，2009年开始设计），我们实际上是在设计一个将会存在好几个世纪的空间，它们让城市生活更加丰富多彩。这也是城市如此有趣的原因，因为城市是存在文化和文明的地方。实际上，“City”这个单词也是来自“Civitas”，在这个意义上，城市和文化是同源的。所以说很简单，公共建筑在很多方面给人们提供益处，因为公共建筑给人们创造了场所去会面、去享受、去形成都市生活。都市化是一个很有趣的概念，让人们生活在一起，彼此相互了解。这就是我们口中的“公共建筑”，就像你们参与的哥伦比亚大学项目和亚眠项目一样。龙山项目（韩国龙山某多用途地标建筑项目，2011年开始设计——译者注）不是公共项目，伦敦桥大厦项目（英国伦敦夏德大厦和附属建筑项目，2005年开始设计，目前正在施工——译者注）也不是公共建筑，但是它们都有一种公共化的趋势。伦敦桥大厦将会有很多访客，但是他们并不会是自己开车来，因为大厦只有42个公共停车位。我们的概念就是将很多功能放入一个竖向的城市中，这是一个非常好的概念。这就是我们喜欢设计公共建筑的原因，因为它们回应了把城市变得更加宜居的乌托邦的理想。

S:一般来说，如何开始一项设计呢？最先进入脑海的是什么？

R: 我们从来不从一个单一的因素开始设计，而是从探索中开始设计：我们探讨功能，探讨城市，探讨梦想。建筑是一个科学和技术的结合体，当然也和诗意息息相关，对光线的感受等等。建筑和社会相关，也和创造能被人们享受的空间有关。所以，我们从来不从单一的元素出发，我们每时每刻都在同时考虑很多元素，在不同设计因素中转换思维，不断穿梭，就像地铁一样。不过有一点是肯定的，我们绝对不能从某种形状的草图开始设计概念，这是错误的，会让我们掉进形式主义的陷阱。重要的是理解，我们得到的方案是从不断挣扎中获得的。有人说，这就像在黑暗中看东西。在黑暗中看东西，开始的时候什么也看不到，但是过上一会儿渐渐就能看到了。今晚你就试试把自己关在黑暗的房间里，开始的时候看不到东西，过一会儿就开始能看见一些东西的轮廓。同样的道理，在概念设计的时候，你绝不能一蹴而就，而是要去学会在黑暗中探索。一段时间之后，答案就会出现在你眼前。我说的这些不是仅仅关于形式的问题，而是关乎一种方法。如果你构思的时候，随手画一点什么，就认定这就是方案，那就大错特错了。

S:相比其他一些建筑师，您对于细部和材料的研究更加深入。您觉得这样做的重要性是什么？

R: 我们更多地研究材料和细部，因为这是一个建筑的起始，同时也是一个建筑的结束。建筑始于建造。不过就我个人来说，我注意材料的运用也是因为我出生在建造商的家庭，经常接触建筑材料。

事实上，这并不取决于你的出发点是什么，你总会最终把各种因素综合考虑。有时候，我们也常常回归自然。你可以从细部和材料出发，然后发展到某种诗意的创造，当然也可以直接从诗意出发，不过终究都会和建筑材料打交道。而后者的选择更加困难一些。所以，我们最好从能触及的部分出发，再深入到不能触及的部分，从容易控制的部分出发，最后才到不易把握的部分。

S:所以有时候材料也能成为概念的一部分吗？

R: 对，但并不是概念本身，而是实现概念的基础，材料是一种保障。通过材料，比如木头、钢材、玻璃和混凝土，设计师在编制设计语言的基础。这个解释非常专业，不过你应该能理解。这不仅仅关于材料或者概念，而是关于设计过程中的方方面面。这非常有趣，我们的职业本身就是把物质性的东西转化为某种灵性的东西，或者说理想中的东西，这是一种结合，非常复杂，不过这和制作一部电影没什么两样，都是这种转化的实践操作：制作一部电影的时候，我们也会捕获各种材料，然后把它们拼接在一起。建筑是在回应需求的，同时也在回应理想，这并不简单。

S:在您的作品中，我们看到您在创造空间的时候注重自然因素，这是您的一个设计哲学吗？

R: 自然，的确。因为我爱自然，也因为自然是建筑的对立面，而建筑是我们的职业。自然固然是自然，而我们是理性的人，应该完成我们自己的职业。自然的确不错，但是如果我们不去保护自己，自然也会伤害我们，所以建筑也是制造遮蔽物的艺术，如果没有遮蔽，我们在如此心爱的自然中甚至无法生存。这是一个很崇高的职业。这就是为什么我们和自然呈现某种斗争的关系，我们玩味自然并与其斗争的同时也享受自然，这是一场持久的战斗。不过无论如何，我们身处自然，无法回避自然。

S:因此在您的作品中，那些玻璃墙和玻璃屋顶，也是在获取自然景色。

R: 对，这也是和自然呼应的一种方式。

S:除了通过自然光之外，我们还有别的方式感知自然吗？

R: 这很难说，光线是最重要的一种方式，当然这并不是唯一方法。我暂时没法说出其他方式。自然是一种永恒的图景，但是我们的工作并不是要去追求自然，而是要追求我们自身的需求。这不仅仅关乎自然，自然会伤害人类。当然我十分热爱自然。我们就像水手，热爱航行，但是如果不加小心，大海也是致命的。我们热爱自然还有一个原因，因为我们看到的是其能为我们所用的一面，而那些未经加工和驯化的自然，的确很美，但是之后又能如何呢？人们需要在自然中留下他们工作的某种印记，我们不断玩味和工作，因为留下这些印记也是一项很难的任务。我们要保持自我，自然是自然，而我们是一些心怀梦想的理智的人，这才是我们的工作。

S:有时候为了让建筑更加有趣和更具适应性，您喜欢用一些机械原件或者工业元素，而非传统的建筑元素。这是您的一个特点吗？

R: 喜欢机械元素是我的个人爱好。我成长的城市有巨大的海港、大船和火车。某种意义上，那是一种个人世界，每个人都有一个世界，我想也有人成长在密布竹林的环境中，你在哪里长大？北京么？

S:不，不过临近北京。

R: 如果要是有人在竹林中长大，他也会喜欢竹子的。有人说，当时10岁大的时候，你的记忆正在吸收身边的事情。而人生剩下的部分都会潜移默化受到这些记忆的影响。我们在50岁之前可能都很难意识到这一点。所以你还需要成长，你什么时候50岁？你今年多大呢？

S:23岁。

R: 那50岁是你的两倍多。不过，你到50岁的时候就会慢慢明白这些。这是真的，这是一种记忆，一种遗传物质。这些并无关你的理性，而是一种自我意识。不过我的确没法说清为什么喜欢机械，也许在我小时候，我就对这些机械——飞机、升降机、轮船什么的充满兴趣和热情，而这些都被保留在想像中。

S:一些建筑带有强烈的建筑师个人风格，但是您的作品不同，它们形式多样、因地制宜。您觉得什么才是一个好的建筑作品？

R: 让建筑成为一个好的职业的原因并不是个人风格。每一个项目都像一次探险，当你设计亚眠项目的时候，它和哥伦比亚大学项目或者龙山项目就如此不同。如果每次的创作都墨守一种方式，不断自我重复，那一定是愚蠢的！这就像写作一样，写作之前你会到处走走，直到你觉得自己知道如何下笔。一位好的电影导演也从来不会把爱情片拍得和冒险片或者战争电影一样，这些都是不同的语言。所以，如果你仔细辨别人们在不同地方的不同行为，你就自然能找到不同的方式。建筑师很容易陷入这样的陷阱：当他们变得成功之后，就不断自我重复。他们会觉得既然已经很成功了又何必非要改变呢，所以他们不断重复，人们也会要求他们重复。这便成了一种自我参考，这样你就丧失了自由。非常可惜，因为自由是建筑师创作的最宝贵的材料，不仅仅指别人给的自由，也指自己给自己的自由，绝不能固步自封。我们的职业很不同，如果你能跟随自然，那就一定能设计出不一样的东西。这并不是说一定要建些新奇的建筑，而是要建些诚实的建筑。这并不是指语言，语言和风格是在不断重复中提炼的，就像一个印章，能让人识别，而建筑设计更加严肃。创造力是一些需要创造的行业中最重要的东西，不管你是画家、音乐家还是建筑师，都需要创造，需要整合，需要严整。你不能通过随心所欲而到达成功，而是需要一种社会意义上或者精神意义上的诗意的整合，需要有一个目标。这也和职业道德息息相关，说到底建筑设计的出发点都各不相同，如果你能始终追寻自然，也许就能找到一些不一样的东西。这并不是缺乏创造力，而是一种责任感。

R: 其实并非如此，我并不是对这些项目有特别的爱好，而是它们真的很有趣。另外，我并不认为项目旁边有一个重要的建筑会让设计变得更难。实际上，我们反而有了更多的可能性。说到自由，人们往往认为要毫无束缚的设计就要完全的自由，就在一片空地上设计，什么都能做，但那实际上是个灾难。没有自由让你遇到麻烦，因为你不知道从何入手，然而从某种意义上，这也能帮助我们，你能理解城市而不是漫无目的地探索。在金贝尔、惠特尼、加德纳或者朗香教堂旁边，这些项目的基地周边都是著名建筑，我们设计要做的事情就是去进行某种回应，就像对话一样。并不是我偏爱这些项目，而是当他们遇到麻烦无从下手的时候会来委托我们进行设计。

S:当您在一个著名建筑旁边设计新建筑的时候，有竞争的感觉吗？

R: 如果去竞争，一定是愚蠢的。你最近去过朗香教堂吗？

S:去过。

R: （在这个项目中）我们要做的是一种互补，而不是竞争，我们要换一种叙事方式。竞争是愚蠢的，我们应该做一些不同的事情，可以讲一个完全不一样的故事。柯布西耶在朗香讲的故事是在山顶的一座雕塑，而我们讲的故事完全不同：是关于寂静、关于交融和光的故事，完全不同。我们必须找到自己生存的方式，而不是挤在同样的思路里。在金贝尔美术馆加建项目中，旧金贝尔美术馆是由路易斯·康设计的，我非常喜欢这个建筑，但是这座建筑太过封闭。所以我们所做的恰恰相反，新馆的设计是开放的、参与性的、透明的。

S:技术革命往往带给建筑形式和建筑哲学很大变化，比如工业革命带来了现代主义。您认为计算机技术革命带给建筑设计的最大机遇和挑战是什么呢？

R: 我并不认为计算机技术带来了太多的不同，它固然让工作更有效率，却也让错误犯得更快。我觉得计算机技术和画笔之间并没有太大不同，画笔来源于思想，有时更快、更有效率。计算机技术和灵感无关，如果计算机技术成为了灵感的来源就太糟糕了，就变成了形式主义。我觉得，现在最大的问题并不是这个，而是地球本身的脆弱。我们都知道，地球是脆弱的，欧洲明白得早一些，现在美国也开始理解这个问题。中国正在爆炸式发展，需要更多资源，中国人也开始明白，走美国发展的道路不是可持续发展，因为美国人均资源占有率比中国高10倍，比意大利高3倍。我认为，地球环境的脆弱性也许能带来更多机遇，理想上我们应该设计些对环境更加友好的“可以呼吸的”建筑。这并不是负面的束缚，而是很好的灵感来源。

S:您似乎对加建项目非常感兴趣，比如惠特尼美术馆加建、金贝尔美术馆加建、加德纳博物馆加建、还有朗香教堂项目。这些项目有什么特别原因吸引您吗？

每个世纪我们都会经历革命，我认为这个世纪，建筑的灵感来源不应该是激进或者攻击性的，而应该是交融的和可以呼吸代谢的。我用呼吸代谢这个词，是因为我认为建筑是可以呼吸的，我们在洛杉矶的项目（美国洛杉矶市科学院，2008年）就能呼吸。实际上，所有的建筑都在呼吸，就连朗香的小建筑也在呼吸。人们应该更好地利用建筑的呼吸能力，更好地利用太阳，更好地利用朝向，让建筑变得更加智能。这些就是灵感的来源，我们不该把这些当成消极因素来对待。一个显而易见的消极因素也会变成机遇，我觉得这很好。

当然，计算机技术改变了速度，但是并非灵感，计算机只是一个工具。而灵感性的东西是其他的东西，是建造技术、是世界的复杂性、是地球的脆弱，灵感不会来源于工具。计算机是好的，但是我们决不能过分依赖计算机，否则就会掉进某种陷阱。现在有一种像钢琴的乐器，就算你不会弹琴，它也能发出优美的声音。就像在KTV唱歌，就算你唱得很差，声音听上去也很好。我并不是说计算机不好，我觉得计算机很好，但是这和灵感无关。计算机只是提供给人一个更好用的工具，然而通过工具说了什么，是好还是坏，并不取决于工具。建筑的灵感就像冰山一角，你能看到的只是水上很小的一部分，但是水下藏着大得多的部分。看得见的部分是关乎形式的，而看不见的是一些其他因素：技术因素、社会因素、政策因素等等。

而今的当务之急是关注脆弱的地球，我们没法回避这一点，保护地球是我们的职责所在。曾经没有人关注这一点，而现在人们开始需要了。我觉得这才是现在带给我们的机遇。

S:在这里的工作方法让我印象深刻，受益匪浅。我注意到制作手工模型仍然是一个非常重要的方法，您能告诉我们关注手工作业的重要性何在吗？这样的做法真的会让我们受益吗？

R: 什么样的工具比我们的双手更好呢？看看这些关节。我觉得有时候手会比思维更迅速。我有些音乐家朋友，他们演奏小提琴或者弹钢琴的时候完全不会思考，他们的手比脑更快。我还认识一些作家，他们写作的时候只是不停地写，根本不知道这个段落会如何结束。手与脑，有时候手更快，有时候脑更快。而且你的思维已经融入工具的不精确中了，这种不精确是必要的，不然你就会开始人云亦云了，这就是这种不精确的意义所在。计算机绘图会非常可怕，因为它们精确无误地呈现一些事情。但是草图就不会，草图是不确定的，如果在计算机中画线，必须要精确地确定点的位置，所有的信息都准确极了，而手工作业却能带给你不确定的价值。不精确对创作很有意义，当你要做一个决定的时候，并非一下子决定所有的细节，而是会经历漫长的思考，才会逐渐发现答案。所以精确的东西是最后才得出来的，而并非一开始。我很享受这种漫步的过程，一开始思路并不清晰，逐渐变得清晰起来，最后我才会抵达终点，不过也说不定中间就走丢了。

S:您的基金会给世界各地的建筑学生提供了实习和旅行的机会，你认为成长为一名杰出建筑师最有价值的经历是什么呢？您能从自己的经历中给我们一些建议吗？

R: 这其实并不关乎你从哪里来，而更关乎一种激情。建筑是一种结合的艺术，也是斗争的艺术。我不断在说，当我们在航海的时候，如果不小心偏差了一度，那每10分钟，这一度的误差都会把你带向更远的歧途。你们这个年龄一定要小心，不要走上错误的道路。

S:如何才能找到正确的道路呢？

R: 你最终一定能找到的，激情会指引方向，你只需要保持方向。正确的方向并不一定是看上去最清晰的方向，也不一定是你正在看的方向，也许是一些其他的道路，很遗憾，我没法直接告诉你答案。正确的方向就像内心深处的爱一样，是很内在的东西。

日常的生活会磨灭一个人，会磨灭所有东西，如果没有选择正确的道路，就会十分不幸，我们要敢于对一些东西说不。

S:我从中国来，很想听听您对于中国建筑的看法。您曾经来过中国，能谈谈对于中国建筑的印象么？您认为中国建筑应该是什么样的，您以后打算参与中国建筑项目吗？

R: 事务所目前的确没有中国项目，这是因为我们先要排开时间才行，有时候他们（中国客户）来的时候我们恰好很忙，有时候他们会委托一些过大的项目，曾经有一次他们希望我们在一年半的时间内设计一座供15万人使用的大厦，这根本无法办到，问题是他们又说不用完全设计好，给我们一张草图就可以了，这当然不可能，这就是问题所在。我当然希望我们能有中国项目，也许我们会有。我对中国的了解并不多，我去过上海、北京，曾经还打算参与奥运会的项目设计。我当然希望能在中国做些什么，但是我们的工作方法是希望能设计所有的细节，说到底还是需要客户的理解才行。

S:那您能谈谈对于中国建筑的印象吗？

R: 这很难说，我从报纸上看到，有时候即使是商业项目设计也并非都不好，我更加了解中国古代建筑。当发展很快的时候必然会经历这样的阶段，北京、上海充斥着各种建筑，不过我还是不回答这个问题比较好，我的答案也肯定人云亦云。

S:您已经赢得了很多奖项，比如英国皇家建筑金奖、普利兹克奖、美国建筑协会金奖等等。您认为，这些成就更多代表了建筑师本人的成就还是对于建筑界未来方向的一种预测呢？

R: 当到我这个年龄的时候，即便只是待着也会获奖。我觉得这些奖项的确在预测方向，但是很遗憾，这个职业变得越来越像一种时尚，有太多明星。我不是明星，但是有些人就会这样认为。有时候建筑行业甚至变得像珠宝一样闪光，而这是最令人遗憾的事情。我赢得了很多奖章，而相比预测未来，这些奖项更多是授予建筑师本人的。不过人和人也不尽相同，比如，弗兰克·盖里就更像一个艺术家，他达到目的的方法独辟蹊径，但也非常好。所以，这其实很有趣，所谓建筑发展的方向并不是一个限制，而是还有很多不同方向，但是永恒的元素是激情。我并不会依照那些奖项预示的方向去做事，而是要找到属于自己的道路，这不仅要依靠实践还要依靠梦想和信念。建筑的主题一直是关于惊讶和出人意料的，当你看到一个建筑，你可能认同或者并不认同它，然而这都已经是一种惊讶，你会感到震惊、疯狂、惊讶或者从中认出什么。有时候这就像驾驶一辆机械一样。建筑决不能让人感到无聊和厌烦，即使你做出再好的工作，如果它是无聊的，那也一钱不值，你需要一种魔力。这很难解释，灵感有时候来源于太阳、光线，有时候是一种难以言喻的美。有时候我们会很接近美，但是美是一种可以尝试接近却永远没法真正抵达的境界，这一点我们应该牢记。□

SUN Chenguang(S):Thanks for providing us an opportunity to be here, gaining a world-wide sight and learning different knowledge. Every project in this office is really a masterpiece with deep study.Recently some new projects opened and I think it is the right time to know something more personally from you as well as share with others, which helps us understand these.

Why do you like to design public buildings or public structure?

Renzo Piano(R): This is true. Actually 80 percent projects in our office are public buildings. Like culture facilities, concert halls, Opera house,library. There is an answer simple, that public buildings are ones that makes the miracle of making better cities. That city when you make a public building that is well done, a place for people, they transform the city to a better place to live. It is not because they are important, but when you make a good university, like we are doing in Columbia University or in Amiens, what you do is you create a place that for centuries will fertilize the life of the city. This is why cities are so interesting,because they are a place of civilization. Actually the word "city" is also coming from "Civitas", in it city and civilization have the same roots. So it is very simple, the public buildings are in a lot of ways benign because they create a place for, to meet,to enjoy, to create an urban life. Urbanity is a very interesting idea, it's about staying together, people understanding each other. That is the reason when we say public building, (addresses interns) like you are working on Amiens and you on Columbia, the Yongsan tower is not a public building, like the Shard tower in London is not a public building, but it has kind of a public intention. It has a lot of people coming, but they don't come by car, the Shard has only 42 car parking spaces. This idea of a vertical city with so many functions in one building, it's a good idea. So this is the reason why we like the public buildings, because they answer to the utopia of making city a better place.

S:In general, how do you start a design? What comes into your mind first?

R: You know we never start from one thing, we start by exploring, we talk about the function, we talk about the city, and we talk about dreaming.Architecture is a mix of science and technology, but of course it is much about poetry, sense of light or whatever. Something about society, aboutcreating places people can enjoy. So you never start from one thing. You start thinking about something and then at the same time, in the same day, in the same hour, you switch into something else and you keep crossing otherwise it's too simple. One thing is for sure that you should never start to scheme by

sketching a shape, because this is wrong, because then you fall into a trap of formalism. So it is always more important to understand that you have to come to a solution through a little struggle.Somebody said that it is a bit like watching in the dark, you know. Watching in the dark, for a while you don't see anything, then after a while, you start to see. Tonight, close yourself in our room in the dark, in the beginning you don't see anything,after a while, you start to see things, the profile of things. This is the same, so in making a scheme you should never jump on something, you have to accept to watch in dark. Then after a while things come to you. This that I am saying is not form, it's about making. These I am saying is not about form. Not form anyway. If you sketch, if you draw something,and you say "this is it", then you falling into a trap.S:Compared to many other architects, you pay more attention to the details and materials study,why do you think it is important?

R: We pay more attentions to details and materials because this is where architecture starts. It is someway where architecture ends, because architecturestarts from building, making a building.And in my personal story, of course, I have this because I grew up in a family of builders, the materials were always present.

But the reality is it doesn't matter where

you start, but you have to come to an end to the complexity of things coming together. And sometimes you have to come to nature. You may start from detail, material, and then go to poetry.You can also start from poetry if you prefer, but with one condition, you have tomeet with material.It is more difficult. It's much better to start from the tangible and arrive at the intangible. You come to the untouching part. To start with the measurable then you end by the immeasurable.

S:So sometimes the material is something about the concept?

R: Oh yes, but it is not a concept, it is a promise of the concept. The material is really a kind of promise. In the material, in the wood, in the steel,in the glass, in the concrete, you are really making the promise of the language. It is quite professional I guess you understood this. It is not about the material, or just about ideas, it is about everything together. It is funny. You have to understand that this profession is about switching from materiality to spirituality, to dreaming. It's a funny combination.It is quite complicated,but it is not different from making cinema, film making, or other things: always about practicalities, capturing materials you find and then putting together. Architecture is really about answering need, but it is also about answering desires. And it is not easy.

S:In your works we can see that you often focus nature in making a space, is that one of your design philosophies?

R: Nature, yes, because I love nature, and also because nature is the opposite of the architecture.Architecture is our job. Nature is nature, and we are from early times in a type of Prometheus challenge of doing our job. Nature is fine, but nature will kill you if you don't protect yourself. That is why architecture is the art of making shelter, a good shelter for the human being. If you don't make a shelter, you cannot survive in nature, the so beloved nature. This is very noble. That is why we are kind of antagonists with nature. You play, you fight against nature and at the same time you enjoy with nature. It is the constant battle of nature. Anyway,nature is where we come from, we cannot escape it.

S:So in your design, we can see the glass walls that in some way capture the nature views

R: Yes, it is one way to flirt with nature.

S:Do we have another way to capture nature,except for the natural light?

R: It is difficult to answer, you know light is probably one of the most important things, but it is not the only one. I don't know I mean I guess a few. I have no idea. Nature is a kind of constant graphics,but our job is not to be natural, our job is to be ourselves. That is not just nature, nature kills you.Frankly, it is not nature. It is fine, I love nature. I am sailor, I love sailing but in the sea, if you are not careful, it can kill you. And also the nature we love in our lives is the one we have domesticated.The undomesticated is beautiful, but after a while you say yes it is beautiful, and then what? Humanbeings need a kind of imprint of their work on nature. That is why the imprint is a kind of difficult task, because it is a constant game, nature is nature and we have to be ourselves. We have to be ourselves. Nature is nature, and we are rational people with a great pleasure in dreaming, and that is our job.

S:To make architecture more interesting and flexible, you like to use some mechanization or industrial elements, not only traditional building elements, Is that one of your characteristics?

R: Oh mechanization because this is my personal story. I grew up in a city with a big harbor, with big ships, trains, it's a world, everybody has a world.People is a world, I guess that somebody that has been growing in a forest of bamboo. Where have you been growing, in Beijing city?

S:No, but near to Beijing.

R: If you grow up in a forest of bamboo, you will like that thing. Somebody said that when you are ten years old, you really have to absorb your essence in memory. And you have to spend the rest of our life digging in that memory. You will only start to understand this when you are fifty years old. So you have to go. When will you be fifty, what age you are?

S:Twenty three.

R: Wow, it's nearly double. Then you will be fifty then you start to understand, but it's true. I mean it is a kind of memory, or DNA. It's not something rational, it's subconscious. Anyway I have no answer to this question of mechanization but except maybe when I can say that when I was a child, when I was passionate by mechanics, by cranes, by lifting,by boats, by ships, all these,they remain in the imagination.

S:Some buildings indicate a strong sense of the architect's personal style, but your design works are different, they are in various forms, and usually designed in terms of local conditions. In your opinion, what makes a good design product?

R: This is what makes architecture a great profession is not style. Every time is anadventure. It is really like, when you make a building like Amiens,it's so different from Columbia or Yongson. You must be stupid to create things in the same way.You must be really stupid to repeat yourself you know, it is like writing.Beforewrite you walk, yougo around you understand howyou can make it. A good film maker doesn't make a love movie the same as an adventure movie or war movie.It's a kind of different language. So if you distinguish carefully for people play differently in different places, but what you can get is different by nature. This is one of the traps to architects, when they become successful,they repeat themselves: because it is successful why I have to change it, so they repeat. People ask them to repeat. So it becomes a kind of selfreferential. And you ruin the freedom.It is a pity because freedom is the most valuable material for architects. It is freedom with other people but also freedom of us. You cannot close yourself in a kind of situation when you have to show who you are. Our job is so different. If you just follow nature then you will come up with something different.It is like not a building to build it eclectic, is more about being honest. This is different form language, Language or style is something else. A style is something when you repeat yourself, is like a stamp, so you understand that's it. Architecture and language are different. That is more serious. Creation is one of the most important things in aneclectic profession.

It doesn't matter if when you are a painter or a musician or if you an architect whatever, you need creative, you need integrative, you need align, you cannot do this freely looking for success. You need a kind of social, mental poetic integrating you need to aim or something. I think it is about ethics. I think at the end the essentials are so different, if you just follow the nature, you need a different job or get something different. This is not a lack of creative.This is because you want be responsible.

S:It seems that you are interested in expansion projects, like expansion to the Whitney, the Kimbell,the Gardner and the Ronchamp Chapel. Are there any special reasons attract you in these projects?R: No it's not true. I am not interested in it but it is interesting. But at the same time I don't feel that have an important building on the side makes things more difficult. Actually you have anextra possibility.But talking about freedom that sometimes people believe that to be eclectic you must have total freedom, nothing, just a piece of land, do whatever you like. It is a disaster, when you have no freedom you are in trouble because you don't know where to start from. But in some way it helps. Because instead of explore things wherever are you, you know what is a city. When you have thing like a Kimbell, Whitney, Gardner or Ronchamp by both

sides we have famous building. All things we do are about response in some way, like answering, like a dialogue to dialogue. It is a dialogue. Don't believe I prefer, but for some reason they call us because they have trouble. When they are in shit they call us.

S:Do you have any feeling that when you build a new building beside a very famous one, you are competing with the old one?

R: If you compete you must be stupid. Have you ever been to Ronchamp recently?

S:Yes, I have.

R: Instead of competing, what you have to do is a kind of complementally. You have to tell another story. It is stupid to go fighting, you do something else. You can just tell a different story. Le Corbusier in Ronchamp made the story that was a sculpture in the top of hill, and we made the story completely different. It is about silence, it's about intersection,is about light. It is completely different. We have to find our way to survive. So Kimbell, which we know is from Louis Kahn, I like that building, but it's really restrained, likea room closed. So what we are doing is the other way, is open. So the building is accessible, open and transparent.

S:The technological revolution has brought manychanges in philosophy and architectural form,such as the industrial revolution has brought the modernism. What do you think is the biggest challenges and opportunities of architecture design in computer technology revolution?

R: I don't think computer technology changes that much. Of course it makes things faster.It also makes it faster to make mistakes. I don't see computer technology much different from pen. Pen is from mental, is faster and more efficient. It is not about the inspiration, if the technology becomes a kind of inspiration it becomes very bad. Because it's very formalist, I think the bigger and bigger issue should not be this, maybe the fragility of earth. In fact that the earth is fragile,all the people understand that.Europe have understood this maybe before,now America. Your country is exploding, so you need energy. Also Chinese is understanding that it's nonsustainable through way the American did. Because American is assuming ten time more energy by person than China, or three times more than Italy.I think this fragility of the earth is probably the opportunity. So ideally we can build in a way that buildings breath, buildings are more sensitive to the environment. It is not negative, is a great source for inspiration.

So every century we have got a kind of revolution. I think this century, the inspiration to the idea of architecture should not beaggressive,should be more intension and breath. I use the word breath because I think architecture can breathe, the San Francisco California breathe.But all the building breathe, even the little Ron champ. It's kind of exchange they make better use of breath, they make better use of sun, they make better use of rotation, they becoming more intelligent. This is creating the source of inspiration.In one condition that you don't take it like negative,it's not something that you should concern like shit.An obligation negative will become an opportunity. I think this is fine.

Of course that computer technology changes the speed, it is not inspiration, computer is an instrument. What is inspirational is something else.It is construction technology, it is the complications of the world, is the fragility of the earth. Inspiration comes from something else, inspiration doesn't come from instrument. Computer is fine, but you should not reply on it too much otherwise you fall into a trap. You know that now there is something like a piano that can play beautifully even you cannot play. Just like in a Karaoke, in the karaoke

you are bad to sing but the sound is beautiful. I am not saying that computers are bad, I think they are good. But it's not inspiration, computer just providing you a better instrument but what you say, it's good or not. You see? This phone you use to do something, but what they say, it doesn't change. The Inspiration is what I tell you, is not coming from instrument. Architecture inspiration is like the invisible part of the ice. What you see is a small piece, but underneath is the ice that all hide. The nonvisible part is something else: it is the knowledge, the society, the politic, etc.

The first thing is the earth, you cannot refuse it, earth is our job, nobody would need them at one time, but now we need them. So I think this is the one thing brings the opportunity

S:The working methods inspired me a lot during the time I worked here. I noticed that the manual work plays an important role. Can you tell me the reason of focusing on hands on work? How is it benefiting us?

R: Which instrument is better than the hands?Looking at the articulations! I think because sometimes hands go faster than minds. I have friends, who are musicians, when they play violin or they play piano they don't think. Their hands are quicker than minds. And also I have, some writer, they just writing on phases they don't know how the phases will end, but they write.Sometimes the combination between this and that is quite magic, sometimes hands go faster, and sometimes mind goes faster. And also your mind is engaged in your instrument imperfection. And imperfection is essential. Because otherwise you do what everybody do. So imperfection is that you can have some reason to do. And this is the reason why sometimes computer drawings are terrible.Because they tell you exactly something. But the sketches don't do that. Sketch is uncertain, if you put a line in the computer you must put a point very precisely and everything become perfect.But sometimes the hands give you the value that is kind of uncertain, imprecision that makes sense to your creation. When you decide something, you never decide all things suddenly all the details,you start to do things that you make a long to do travel around the world, and then you start to see. So precision comes in the end, not in the beginning. For me I enjoy this beautiful Paris city of going through. At the beginning it's not clear,then become more clear. And then and then I will be there, or just maybe I lost at the end.

S:Your foundation provides internship opportunities and travelling scholarships to architecture students all around the world. What kind of experience do you think is the most valuable for an architect to be outstanding? Can you provide some advices from your own experience growing to be a real master?

R: This is not about where you come from. I think this is more about passion, more ethics. Architecture is the art of enjoining, also the art of fighting. What I have to say to everybody, when you sail, if you are not careful, you couldn't sail keeping your precision by one degree, but every ten minutes one degree makes you go to another destination. And this is what happened when you go sailing.When it's in your age, you should be careful, don't go into wrong direction.

S:How to find the right direction?

R: Oh you will find, it's also about passional.So keep the route. The right direction is not searching around in a way which is clear, not the eye way, the right direction maybe something else. Unfortunately I cannot help you. The right direction is something like a secret love inside, is something inside.

Be careful you maybe killed by day by day life,day by day life is killing everything. If something is

wrong, it will kill you. Sometimes you have to say no to something.

S:I am from China, so I really want to hear your opinion about Chinese architecture. You have been to China. Can you tell me your impression about Chinese architecture? What do you think a "Chinese architecture" should be like? Do you have any plans on participating in China's construction projects in the future?

R: No Chinese project for this moment. Firstly we have to arrange the time. Sometimes they came when we are too busy, sometimes they came with a too big project. They want to make a tower for 150 000 people in one year and a half. How you do that? The problem is they say no, no that much,just give us a sketch. This is not possible, so this is the problem. I wish we can have, maybe we will. I know China, not very well but I know, I've been to Shanghai, to Beijing. I may do something I mean of course I wish to do something, but the way we work is that we like to draw every feature. And we have to find somebody can understand us in the end.

S:Can you tell us something your impression about Chinese modern architecture?

R: That's difficult to me to say, what you see on the newspaper, sometimes even it is commercial is not all bad, I know better traditional Chinese architectures. When you grow up fast of course you will do something. Yes Shanghai and Beijing is cities with all kind of architectures, but I prefer not to answer this question, I may tell you something ordinary, so forget it.

S:You have won many prizes so far, the gold medal of RIBA, the Pritzker Prize, and the gold medal of AIA and so on. Personally, do you these prizes stands for the achievement of the architect himself or indicate the future of the whole architecture industry?

R: When you have my age, then you stay like this and it comes. I means yes, it is also indicate the direction. But unfortunately today, this profession is become too much like fashion: too many stars this kind of things. You see me, I am not a star, but people think this. So architecture is sometimes like shiny thing like beauty, jewelry. This is the most unfortunate. Well it is not the case of gold medal, of course I won the medal of AIA and the Pritzker Prize of whatever, and those are more to give people than indicate direction. But you know that people are different, for example there are people like Frank Gehry that is more like an artist. Frank Gerhy is another way to approach things but it is very good. So it is very interesting, sometimes direction of architecture is not just a limit, there are just a number of directions, but the constant element is passion. I will not do what the prize indicates to do.You have to find your own way. The most important thing probably to say is that you have to rely on practicality but also dream. Architecture is always about kind of surprise, amazing. When you see a building and you may agree or disagree but it is all anyway about surprise. You are astonished, amazed,surprised, or you recognize something. Sometimes like driving machines. Architecture should be never boring. So even if you can do a good job, but if it is boring, it doesn't work. You need magic. It is not easy.it is difficult to explain, but the inspiration comes from light, the sun etc. Sometimes it is a kind of beauty, unreachable. You can be very close,but beauty is something you can try but you never reach. So this is something you have to keep in mind.□