荷兰West 8 项目总监克里斯蒂安·多布里克对话北京林业大学郑曦教授

采访：赵晶 同声翻译：何以纯

左：克里斯蒂安·多布里克；右：郑曦Left: Christian Dobrick; Right: ZHENG Xi

访谈人物：

（德）克里斯蒂安·多布里克/ West 8城市规划与景观设计事务所项目总监、资深风景园林师

郑曦/北京林业大学园林学院教授/研究方向为风景园林规划设计与理论/本刊副主编

Profiles:

(Germany) Christian Dobrick, who is the Senior Project Manager and Senior Landscape Architect at West 8 urban design & landscape architecture in the Netherlands.

ZHENG Xi is the professor at the School of Landscape Architecture, Beijing Forestry University and deputy chief editor of this Journal. His research focuses on landscape planning and design and theory.

克里斯蒂安·多布里克1997年毕业于德国埃森大学并获景观建筑硕士学位，专长于复杂城市公共空间领域的景观设计。2000年初，多布里克加入West 8。在 West 8 创始人及设计总监阿德里安·高伊策的共同指导下，多布里克先生领导了一系列知名的大型城市设计和景观设计项目，包括赢得众多大奖的西班牙马德里河岸更新景观工程和业内极负声望的瑞士诺华上海研发中心总体景观。

郑曦是北京林业大学园林学院教授，本刊副主编。2006年毕业于北京林业大学并获得城市规划与设计（含风景园林）博士学位后留校任教，主要完成了包括第三届亚洲沙滩运动会主会场区景观工程、烟台植物园景观工程等一系列大型规划设计项目，以及景观绩效评价、山水城市、绿色综合体理论框架等相关研究。

本刊编辑部主任赵晶副教授主持了多布里克先生与郑曦教授访谈对话，通过2名设计师的交流和对话，我们了解到园艺博览会对于风景园林等相关行业以及对于城市发展的推动作用。我们需要正视全球化和气候变化等趋势和问题带给风景园林的机遇和挑战，以更好应对未来10年风景园林相关行业领域的挑战。

LA：《风景园林》

Christian：克里斯蒂安·多布里克

ZHENG：郑曦

LA：因为2019北京世界园艺博览会，我们得以在此相聚。近年来，各种各样类型的园艺博览会相继举办，并将在不同的国家举行。所以我想知道您对此次在中国举办的博览会有什么看法，您认为它与其他国家举办的博览会有什么区别？

Christian：由于地域的不同,中国的园博会和国外的最大的区别在于尺度的不同。但人们对园林的使用或对园林学术上的理解是类似的。本次园博会的参观者预计达到1 600万人，这与国外的情况不同。国外一般举行园艺博览会的规模是100～200万人。但是在中国，我们要面对的挑战要大得多，不光要考虑到怎么向这么多人介绍我们的园艺，更要有安保、流线等方面不同尺度的考量。

ZHENG：中国目前有各个级别的园博会，有已经举办过的、正在举办的，还有即将举办的，所以园博会在中国当代城市发展中是一个非常热点的话题。其实中国有这种集中展示不同类型花园的传统，叫做集锦式园林，比如圆明园，它希望将全国各地优秀的园林作品汇集在一起。今天中国各个城市为举办园博会所建设的园博园，往往呈现出巨大的尺度，为什么会这样呢？我觉得首先是中国是一个发展中国家，处于快速城市化进程中，需要不断地进行城市建设，所以园博会的特点就决定了它是有效推动城市规划实施的方式。其最重要的意义就是它的举办时间是固定的，这样就给建设方带来了巨大的压力，往往能够在短时间内推动一些平时不容易实现的工作快速完成，主办城市会协调各个部门，优先推动项目建设及相关基础设施的配套完善，以保证能够按时开幕。所以，园博园就形成了具有高关注度的、集中力量推进的状态，成为一个有效推动城市发展的重要手段。其次，园博会的举办如同城市的一张绿色名片，会给举办城市带来广泛的关注度、形成非常巨大的社会影响力和价值。还有就是刚才提到的，我国人民具有的对园林艺术、花卉园艺喜爱的传统，所以我觉得这是园博会在中国举办和在其他国家举办的不同之处。

LA：接下来，我想请问我们的客人是如何看待这些园艺博览会对景观设计发展以及其他相关产业的推动作用？与此同时，它们对城市和地方发展会产生怎样的影响？

Christian：不管是在西方还是东方，园艺博览会包含双重任务，除了短期对园艺进行集中展示之外，还包括长期通过园林来解决周边城市地带的发展问题。在欧洲，园博会可能是解决2块城市区域之间的连接问题，但是在中国可能包括激活一个郊区、一个地区的问题。对于一个普通的参观者来说，他看到的可能仅仅是一个园林的展示，但是对于我们作为经常进行园林设计和规划方面的学者和专家来说，会知道它将对这个地区产生20年甚至30年以上长远的影响。

ZHENG：我很同意Dobrick先生的说法。在中国，园博会还可以为我们的行业搭建一个互相交流的平台。实际上，我们的城市是需要各类节事活动的，在历史上也是这样，如宋画《金明池争标图》中所绘的就是皇帝在每年固定的日期，向所有的市民开放位于开封城郊的皇家园林—金明池，在园中水面上举办的争标活动，就成为了一个重要的城市节事和传统。又如，辛弃疾的诗“玉壶光转，一夜鱼龙舞”，描述的是元宵佳节夜晚城市里热闹的景致。今天北京的公园中有很多以植物和自然为主题的节事，都会有大量的观赏者去参与，如玉渊潭的樱花节、香山的红叶节、植物园的桃花节等，它们的影响力是全市范围的，为城市的文化做出了突出贡献，对市民热爱自然、欣赏自然的社会风气的形成有巨大的推动作用，已经深刻塑造了当代北京的城市气质。

我认为园博会也是这样，北京本身就是一个以举办各类大型城市事件活动来推动城市发展的典型城市。如在1990年举办了亚运会，举办地就在北京的中轴线北侧。城市规划也在这个区域预留了未来举办奥运会的场地，具有前瞻性，到2008年举办夏季奥运会，中轴线北端建设680hm²巨大尺度的奥林匹克森林公园。到2013年结合城南行动计划，选择在丰台区临永定河的一处废弃垃圾场作为中国国际园林花卉博览会的基址，并建立了中国园林博物馆，也提前实现了当地的地铁线路建设，设置了园博园站，体现出推进规划落实和快速发展的独特特质。到了2010年，结合鲜花港建设，又在顺义区举行了花博会，在2014年，在怀柔区雁栖湖举办了APEC会议，形成了国际会都。2019年，也是新中国成立70周年时，即将在延庆区举办世界园艺博览会，2022年，助力实现京津冀一体化，北京市与张家口市联合举办冬季奥运会。所以大型城市事件对北京区域发展有深刻的影响（图1）。

LA：这位是多布里克先生，荷兰West 8城市规划与景观设计事务所的代表，也是此次北京园艺博览会主要庭园区域的设计师之一，我想知道您的作品的设计思想和理念是什么？与之前的项目相比，它的特殊之处是什么？

Christian：我们在本次园博会的场地上设计了3 座花园，这3座花园是通过一条路径联系起来的，用不同的植栽、不同的园艺设计，带给人们不同的感官体验。我们觉得园艺的产生就是为了让人们接触自然、体会自然。我们也希望通过不同的设计手法，使这些树木、灌木和泥土能唤起人们感情上的共鸣。它是有季节上的变化的，参观者在不同季节拜访园林的感觉是不同的。园艺是对自然的一种自然式的展示。同时，我们也让参观者了解，自然也会受到来自季节的不可控制的节奏的影响。希望参观者体会到这个简单的信息，这是一个很简单的信息，但是我们觉得如果参观者能体会到这些，我们就会觉得特别幸运。

LA：好的，多布里克先生，我还有另外一个问题，请问您在设计过程中遇到过哪些难题？您最终是怎样解决的？

Christian：我们在园子的设计过程中，面临着的挑战是怎么把它落实。开始把它设计成逐渐下沉的形式。它最深的地方在地下9m，可以给人形成向上仰望的空间体验。后来我们和世园局多次沟通和反馈，发现地下水位只有地下5m，这种情况下，我们要从尺度上来调整我们的设计。另外一点是我们不仅要考虑到适合北京地区的植物苗木品种，同时也要考虑到在2019年北京世园会开幕前，我们不可能有足够的时间等待植物的成长。为了达到开幕的效果，什么样的苗木能供我们使用是我们面临的很大的问题。我们希望我们的设计不仅是一个美好的愿景，更希望它是一个可以落地的项目。

LA：郑教授，您对多布里克先生面临的问题有什么看法？您有什么建议吗？

ZHENG：West 8的设计是作为国外设计师创意展园完成的，组委会就是希望Dobrick先生能够提供最好的创意，不会有更多的预设条件，我觉得没有任何问题，也非常期待。另外，我看过West 8在2012年西安世园会做的万桥园，效果非常好，也很有影响力，我特别期待这个花园能够再次带来难忘的体验。

LA：在全球化大背景下，我们有更多的机会在不同的国家和地区开展实践项目，比如说，接下来的北京世园会就是一个很好的机遇。不知道您2位是怎样看待全球化给景观设计以及其相关产业带来的变化？

Christian：我认为全球化有非常好的一方面，从园林景观的角度来说，在过去的200年中，整个园林艺术发展是东西方互相输出的过程，大家都想获取异国情调的园林体验。全球化以后，有大量美国式、欧洲式的园林输出到了东方。园博会的有益之处就是可以提供学术、技术和植栽品种层面的交流平台。另一方面，我们认为中国不仅需要国际化的园林体验，更应该回归到本源，让参观者看到中国传统园林、植物、空间的塑造。从这个角度来看，我们已经开始看到中国园林的发展，能得到参观者的认同感是非常积极的一面。但是，全球化是具有两面性的，不仅有好的一面，也有特别危险的一面。

ZHENG：我非常同意Dobrick先生的观点，全球化能够促进各方广泛而深刻的交流，让各国的专业人员可以互相了解对方，如果没有全球化，可能也不存在今天我们的对话了。比如18世纪的欧洲花园曾盛行“中国风”的添景物，有很多中式塔和亭子。但多是设计师以他们想象中的样子完成的。反过来，中国园林建设也受到欧美风的很多影响，很多是通过二手资料或者照片猜测，并没有很透彻地了解设计的理念。进入到全球化发展阶段后，联系更加密切，反而有助于促进各国深入了解对方的文化，而不是去盲目地崇拜和借鉴，更多的是相互了解各个国家设计的思路或者共享技术，共同面对当代发展中的各种挑战，比如气候变化、海平面上升、空气污染等问题，吸收其他国家和地区相关行业里更好的解决办法。任何地区面对全球化问题的同时，也有地区发展的压力，这些问题是慢慢形成的，所以对于风景园林这个专业就是不断地在应对全球化的同时，解决好地区发展压力，传承当地的生态智慧，并不断地与城市发展相调试和适应，让城市更加宜居和永续。

LA：谢谢。您2位都是处在园林行业前沿的杰出设计师。面对当今世界范围内的气候变化和环境退化，能否谈谈我们应如何在景观设计实践中面对挑战，体现其生态价值？

Christian：风景园林这个专业对全球化的影响有大尺度和小尺度2个层面。以欧洲的节能和可持续发展为例，在德国，政府鼓励每个人参与，每家都会在屋顶安装太阳能电池板。虽然数量很小，但是由于全民参与，形成了整体节能的效应，这对国家的影响非常大。而在荷兰，个人参与的规模较小，由政府决定实施大型项目以实现绿色能源。在北海所建设的风力发电场形成绿色能源输出的比例和德国是相同的。同样，对于风景园林行业，我们能做的也有很多，例如可以教育孩子去理解一棵蔬菜的成长对生态环境的影响和水资源的教育等。如果能利用这个行业对每一个人进行教育，那就会对整个地球能源利用产生一定的影响。每个个体都能够对解决问题产生一定的作用。

2 West 8 作品：上海新华滨江公园West 8’s project, Xinhua Waterfront Park

ZHENG：我认为风景园林学实际上就是调和人工干预和自然环境关系的学科，核心意义就是生态价值的体现，这也是我们专业的根本问题，我同意Dobrick先生的观点：分为不同尺度来看待问题。从大的区域来看，任何城市都是建立在自然系统之上的，这个自然不是完全天然的环境，它是经过持久的人工改造、整理和梳理之后的自然，城市建造在它的上面，会形成宜居的环境，像北京城的营建梳理了西山的汇水，引水贯都，并在西山地区进行持久的风景与园林营建，形成三山五园，包括昆明湖、昆玉河、长河，进入城里面会有什刹海、中海、南海、北海，再往东通过通惠河和通州连在一起，通州就是京杭大运河的北端点。实际上就是通过人工来疏导自然的一个系统，使它形成人类宜居体系，能够跨越经济、人口和时代发展的变迁，都是比较繁荣的区域。所以，通过整理和梳理自然，进行适度地干预来形成的环境，这就是它最大的生态价值体现。但是也具有两面性，像荷兰是一个低地的国家，它会有很多圩田，从今天的生物学生态学观点来看，不断地填海，会影响浅海岸地带的生物多样性，如海岸的底栖生物和潮沟的结构等问题，但是通过填海形成的圩田确实使人居环境更适宜，成为比较发达的国家，这种生态价值有一个动态的标准来衡量，风景园林的工作就是要通过选择什么样的方式，在什么时间去进行适度的人工干预自然，这是风景园林学科的优势。计成提到：自成天然之趣，不烦人事之工。就是在自然系统上来完成我们的工作，这就是在大尺度的层面看待问题。小尺度层面来说，目前很多的城市病，我们需要去研究城市绿地的功能，如对于健康的价值，对于缓解热岛的效益，对于生物多样性和缓解雨洪、地表径流中的作用。这些都是我们今天需要做的工作，我仍然想说，无论面对的任务是什么样的基址，我们都要在深刻理解区域层面的生态系统的基础上开展工作，才能体现出风景园林专业的独特价值。

LA：接下来，我想知道您对未来10年中景观设计及其相关行业的发展趋势有何看法？

Christian：回到刚才说的全球化的问题，我们觉得未来可能的发展方向是一种本土化、地域化的回归。当地的居民作为本土的诉求，他们会希望有一种场所感、回归历史和文化。类似于在饮食文化方面，我的祖母会用某种特定的方法制作食品，体现了当地匠人快要消失的一些手艺。我们可以发现这些也会体现在景观设计方面。在很多项目当中，无论是政府业主还是私人业主已经开始有了这方面的追求。

ZHENG：我也同意Dobrick先生提到的关于回归的概念，我觉得这个趋势很难预测，但是总体来讲，风景园林行业就是要不断解决社会经济和城市发展过程中人居环境发生的改变，如果发生了不好的改变，我们要想办法去应对。每个时代有相适应的对策，只有在当时的社会背景下，寻找到了最合适的办法，它就会使人居环境变得更加美好，所以我觉得这个趋势是不容易预测的。中国人的栖居传统是喜欢诗意的山水城市，首先会整理所在区域自然的汇水，引入并穿过城市作为城市发展的基底，人们在城中自家院子里面营建花园。他们就联想到花园中的山就是城外真山的余脉到了自家，水也要和外面真实的水互通在一起，这就形成了整体的自然观。同时又在城外浅山地区营建一些寺庙、书院等建筑，逐渐形成了自然与人文交织、风景与文化共存的面貌，构成城内外的共同体。人的生活是离不开自然的，不同的时期，社会的经济发展、人口的发展，城市、郊区都会有不同的变化，但我觉得风景园林一直有它存在的价值，它可以不断解决这些问题，让人们不断地亲近自然，形成更健康的生活方式，这个可能就是发展趋势吧。

Christian：郑教授，您认为未来10年的发展趋势将会怎样？因为现在我很想知道。我承认现在仍有很多问题亟待解决，但发展趋势会怎样呢？

ZHENG：我觉得从10年的发展来看，这个确实很难预测，但是我也认为，一方面是通过绿地的系统来解决城市病的问题，这是非常重要的一个点，中国正在推行海绵城市，城市中的微公园更新和城市森林建设，都是希望从生态的角度来审视我们风景园林的行业以及绿地体系在城市中的价值。第2个方面是目前已经开始做的，就是社会层面，让更广泛的大众参与到绿地和公园之中，现在有一个词叫可食用景观，就是可食用植栽和科普教育与整个绿地的体系如何更好的对接，我觉得未来的10年，在中国一定会做得更好。让它有更广泛的群众基础，不仅仅是审美的基础。

LA：从教育的角度来说，景观设计行业应做好怎样的准备去迎接未来的挑战？

Christian：我认为风景园林教育可以通过各种不同的方式实现，不一定非要坐在教室里上课。这也是我们设计这个园子的目的，即希望教育是可以被体验和被感受的。让人在潜移默化中受到影响，让人爱上景观、爱上自然。这在欧洲已经比较普遍，比如欧洲社区的小花园，周围的居民会一起参与花园的修建、改良、管理。我认为这是风景园林教育发展的一种趋势。

ZHENG：的确，目前风景园林的范畴在不断扩大，所以这对于教育来说是一个巨大的挑战，就像我所工作的北京林业大学园林学院，是新中国建立的历史最悠久的风景园林教育基地，有60多年的历史，规模也是这个学科里中国最大。风景园林专业的学生有2 500人左右，我们也不断地在调整，风景园林在教育部的学科评估中位于全国第一，也入选一流学科建设名录。对于我们学院来说，这是一个巨大的机会，我们的教育体系发展了60多年了，由于教育体系的变化，10年前流行的东西到现在已经不再流行了，可能目前流行的热点问题，到了未来的10年也不再流行了。但唯有一些经典的内容，它是跨越时代的。我觉得无论风景园林专业如何去扩展，它实际上都是有一个内核的，特别从本科教育的角度来讲，它的内核是要做好传承，打下非常好的基础，再在这个基础上去进行时代所需的扩展，会在不同的时段，结合国内国外的热点问题来进行发展，同时，我们学院有非常广泛的实习，比如苏州、杭州的实习，从20世纪60年代就开始了，因为很多经典的东西是超越时代的。我们应该在双一流建设的基础上，做好传承，同时培养学生更开阔的视野。从风景园林的视角来分析生态、区域、城市的问题，然后再看待它的绿地体系和花园的问题，它是一个逐级的过程。同时，风景园林与社会的对接，引导大众参与园林设计，关注社会问题。还有就是文化的传承，继续让文化以风景园林为载体去传承，把园林的各个功能融合在一起，产生更多的社会、经济、人文价值，这就是一个教育的方向。

LA：多布里克先生对于West 8的海外项目有着丰富经验。对于一个国际事务所来说，West 8能在每个项目中都做出本地特色，是极为难能可贵的。我们相信，West 8在不同的景观文化中工作的经验，对于所有的风景园林师都有着巨大的借鉴意义。您能否为我们展示一个您最近参与的项目？（如上海新华滨江公园）这个项目是如何与当地文化或是周边环境相联系的呢？

Christian：新华滨江绿地属于黄浦江东岸滨江公共空间贯通开放工程的组成部分，隶属浦东五大滨江主题区段之一的文化长廊段，岸线全长约1.6km，总占地面积17万m2，东接民生码头工业遗存更新区域，西连上海船厂滨江绿地，串联民生路、桃林路、源深路、福山路、东方路等重要城市街道，将集东岸贯通道、滨水大道、城市广场、开放式公共绿地等为一体，突出文化休闲和体验功能，是打造浦江文化高地的重点项目。其中的亮点设计中可称之为与中国文化相关的可举例福山路2座工业遗产建筑之间的百子广场。它是双层水岸城市滨江段的核心，位于2座工业遗产建筑之间和双层水岸的中点。百子山通过现代的语汇诠释传统的造园手法，将百子广场“百子同乐”的定位生动展现。防汛墙的驼峰高差通过舒缓的广场坡道缓慢化解。两侧利用高差设置了凹壁以提供露天休闲座椅。有别于其他广场用于大型节庆活动的场地要求，百子广场中间的百子山是一个鼓励大人和孩子自娱自乐的乐园（图2～4）。

3 West 8 作品：上海新华滨江公园West 8’s project, Xinhua Waterfront Park

LA：做国际项目必然需要在不同文化中切换。当您开始一个新项目时，您有没有什么快速融入的小技巧？您怎样去了解那些不为人知的文化和生活方式呢？

Christian:通过了解一个地方的历史，我们就能知道那里发生过的事。而那些故事通常是由艺术家告诉我们的。有时候，绘画、诗歌、文学以及一些简单的民间故事都会成为我们灵感的重要来源。有时候，最简单的方法就是坐在现存的公园或花园里，看看这些当地人。他们会告诉我们一个特定地方的人们如何与大自然接触，而这正是我们想知道的。就好比一个大厨游览其他国家，他试图从当地的菜肴中汲取灵感和想法。在我们开始为某些新项目设计之前，参观某个地方现存的主要花园，我们会很享受。

LA：West 8很擅长创造独一无二具有高度识别性的构筑物。这是否是设计策略的一部分？

Christian：“创造一个地方”的确是我们应用到城市规划和景观设计中的一种技术。我们坚信它对这一行业的重要性。我们创造一个地方，它会是第二自然，人们可以回到这里，找寻自己的记忆，找到那一份参与感和归属感。不管它是一个花园，或是一条街道、一个广场，还是一个海滨。我们会采用不同的方法，而不仅仅只是去创造同样的东西。这只是它的一部分，但并不是唯一的方法，或者说它的全部。我们有很多方法去重建那种属于它们的文化。在创造这个第二自然时，我们会先考察其背景。这是一种基于实用性和必然性的逻辑。它会表现出一种特性，但有时也是当地环境的一种表达，这也正是为什么荷兰West 8没有固定模式的原因。因为每一个立地都是独一无二的，所以它们每个都不一样（图5～8）。

LA：West 8 正在介入越来越复杂的项目。比如纽约总督岛，它绝不仅仅只是一个城市公园。介入大尺度的复杂项目是有意为之吗，或者这只是行业的趋势？

Christian：自创建以来，West 8已经在国际上工作了30年，并在世界各地开展项目，比如：哥本哈根、伦敦、莫斯科、纽约、马德里、汉堡、多伦多、阿姆斯特丹、上海以及首尔。其中一些是从大规模城市规划中衍生的子项目。而这些大规模的项目中有许多都是国际重要比赛的突破性成果。最近在比赛中获胜的还包括香港西九龙文化区公园。总督岛公园[位于纽约港的一个172英亩（约69.6hm2）的岛屿上]的设计在2006年的一次国际设计比赛中获胜，从而总督岛项目启动（图9～10）。

West 8不仅有处理复杂设计的综合方法，并且在以下几方面经验丰富：大规模城市规划与设计、景观设计、滨水景观项目、公园、广场和庭园设计。我们还针对全球变暖、城市化和基础设施问题提出了大规模城市规划的理念和愿景。通过这种综合方法，许多城市设计和全球性问题都能得到有效解决。而且我们有一个跨国团队，一直以来都非常成功。现在的许多学者都倾向于将我们的方法归为“景观城市主义”，我们发现能够与之引起共鸣。我们的马德里里奥项目（实质上是曼萨纳雷斯河岸更新景观工程设计）最近获得了由哈佛大学设计学院颁发的维罗妮卡·鲁吉绿色城市设计奖。

LA：最后，您能谈谈对北京世园会的期待或愿望吗？

Christian：我们对这次世园会有很高的期望。有这么多优秀的设计师参与此次盛会，我非常期待看到这次世园会的成功举办。同时，我们也感受到了压力。首先我们要尽可能高水平地实现此次展会。我们选择了如何设计，接下来就是如何去实现它。我非常希望看到1 600万观众一起分享自己的体验。

4 West 8 作品：上海新华滨江公园West 8’s project, Xinhua Waterfront Park

ZHENG：2019年北京世园会也正值新中国成立70周年，相信到时会有更多的人欢聚在北京并参观世园会，会有来自全球各行各业的人，所以我非常期待。我记得A1级别（最高级别）世园会上一次在中国举办是在1999年的昆明，当时促进了我国风景园林行业的快速发展，以至于近20年来，任何城市要举办不同规模和级别的园博会，可能都会去回顾和参观1999年昆明世园会园博园，它有非常好的引领性，我也期待在2019年，经过20年，A1级的世园会来到北京，在带来巨大的社会效应同时，也会更深刻地带动风景园林行业的发展，再引领下一个20年！

致谢：感谢张博雅前期准备采访内容。

注释：

图1由郑曦提供；图2～4由West 8提供，图5、6来源于Jeroen Musch; 图7来源于 Luke Harley; 图8来源于Nicola Betts; 图9、10来源于Timothy Schenk。

录音整理：王子恒

翻译：万静柯

校对：王晞月

（编辑/张雯娟）

Christian Dobrick graduated from the University of Essen in German with a master’s degree of landscape architecture in 1997 specializing in the landscape design of complex urban public spaces. In early 2000, Dobrick joined in West 8. At West 8, together with Founder and Design Director Adriaan Geuze, Mr. Dobrick has led a series of well-known large-scale projects of urban and landscape design, including the landscape regeneration project at the bank of Madrid River in Spain which received many awards and the prestigious overall landscape design in the Shanghai R&D Center of Novartis AG.

ZHENG Xi is a professor at the school of landscape architecture, Beijing Forestry University and deputy chief editor of the Journal. He graduated from Beijing Forestry University with a doctor’s degree of urban planning and design(including the landscape architecture) in 2006 and then stayed at school for teaching there. He mainly completed a series of large-scale planning and design projects such as the project of the main venue area in 3rd Asian Beach Games and the Botanical Garden in Yantai, as well as the related researches on landscape performance, mountainwater city and the framework of green complex.

ZHAO Jing, the director of contributing editorial department of this journal and associate professor at Beijing Forestry University,host Mr.Dobrick’s Dialogue with Professor ZHENG Xi.Through the communication and conversation of the two designers, we have learned the driving forces of horticultural expos for both of the landscape architecture and urban development from their perspectives. And we need to confront the opportunities and challenges that the trends and issues such as globalization and climatic change brought to the landscape architecture so as to better deal with the challenges in the landscape architecture,its related industries during the next 10 years.

LA:Landscape ArchitectureJournal

Christian: Christian Dobrick

ZHENG: ZHENG Xi

LA: We are all here together because of the Beijing Expo 2019. In recent years, there are many various kinds of horticultural expos which were held one by one and will be held in different countries in the future. So, what's your perception about the expos being held in China this time, and what's the difference between the expo and other countries?

Christian: I feel that one of the main differences between the Chinese and European expos is especially their scales. For the Beijing Expo 2019 where West 8 is invited, they expect visitors to reach 16 million people. This is the biggest challenge we face, because in Europe where expos are held, they expect one million or two million visitors. The challenge is not only to consider how to introduce so many people to our way of gardening, but also to consider security, streamlines the different dimensions of consideration.

ZHENG: Currently, there are horticulture expositions at all levels in China, that is, those expos have been already held, are being held and will be held. So horticulture expo is a hot topic in the process of development of Chinese contemporary city. Actually, China has this tradition of collectively showing various types of gardens,which is called collection of the best garden such as the Old Summer Palace, whose aim is to gather all excellent garden works in our country together.The expo parks that every city of China today has been constructed for holding horticulture expo show themselves at large scale, but why? Firstly, I think China is a developing country, and it is in the process of rapid urbanization requiring constant urban construction, so the features of horticulture expo decides that it is effective for promoting urban planning and implementation. And the most important significance is that its opening time is fixed, so it brings great pressure to the construction party who tends to drive some works that can’t be easily completed at other times to be done quickly in short time. And host cities will coordinate with other departments giving priority to push forward construction of the project and related accomplishment of supporting infrastructure, so as to ensure that the opening ceremony will be done on time. Therefore, expo parks have formed this kind of state that much attention is paid to them and the contribution of each part is put into their construction, which becomes the major method of effectively promoting the development of cities.In addition, the holding of horticulture expo is like green visiting card of a city, which contributes to bring extensive attention to cities and form tremendous social in fluence and value. Moreover,just now I mentioned that people in our country adhere to the tradition of loving gardening and horticulture, so I think this is the difference among the expos held in China and other countries.

5 West 8作品：阿市东半岛住宅区行人桥West 8’s project, Borneo-Sporenburg Bridges

LA: Next, I would like to ask our guests how do you think of the driving force of these horticultural expos to the development of landscape architecture and other related industries? Furthermore, how do they affect urban and local development?

Christian: I think a lot of garden show or expos have double functions. Apart from the core motive to demonstrate and exchange ideas in horticultural skills and developments, expos in Europe do usually function also as an engine to kick-start a large-scale development that intend to resolve the urban design problems between two existing regions of a city or between different cities.Same as some expos in China which are planned with excessively large-scale site, do function also as a motor to kick-start a large-scale regional development, intend to resolve urban design problems identi fied during urbanization. So for an average visitor he may see only a demonstration of garden design, but for those of us who regularly engage in landscape design and planning, we know that each of these expo creates a long-term impact on the region for 20 years or more.

ZHENG: I also agree with what Mr. Dobrick said. In China, the International Horticultural Expo can provide our industry with a platform to communicate with each other. In fact, our cities need various festival activities, and it did the same in our history. For example, the Painting in the Song dynastyDragon-boat Racing in Jinming Poolportrays that the emperor announced to open the Jinming Pool which was located in the suburb of Kaifeng City to all the citizens at a regular date each year. The dragon-boat racing held in the Jinming Pool has become an important festival activity and a tradition of the city. For another example, Xin Qiji, the famous poet in South Song Dynasty, wrote the poem “the bright moon like jade pot gradually moves toward the west and the lanterns shaped like dragons and fish dace throughout the whole night”which describes the lively scenery of the Lantern Festival in the city night. Today, there are some plants and nature-themed activities in the gardens such as Cherry Blossom Festival in Yuyuantan Park, the Red Leaf Festival in Fragrant Hills Park and the Peach Blossom Festival in Beijing Botanical Garden, a large number of people are willing to visit. These festival activities have great in fluence on the whole city, making contributions to the city’s culture and significantly promoting citizens love and appreciation for nature. They have already profoundly shaped the temperament of the contemporary Beijing.

6 West 8作品：荷兰乌得勒支的麦西玛公园West 8’s project, Maximapark Park Pergola

I think the International Horticultural Expo is such an activity and Beijing needs to drive its development through holding various large-scale urban events. For example, the Asian Games was held at the north of central axis of Beijing City in 1990. The site for holding the future Olympic Games has been reserved when making city planning, which is really foresighted. The 680-hectares Olympic Forest Park was built at the north of central axis before the holding of Summer Olympic Games in 2008. And in 2013, combined with the Action Plan of the south area of Beijing,an abandoned garbage dump near the Yongding River in Fengtai District was chosen to be the site of the International Garden Expo. In addition, the Garden Museum was built and the construction of local metro lines was also accomplished ahead of the schedule which set the Garden Expo Station.All of these reflect the special characteristics of implementing the plans to carry out and develop rapidly. In 2010, in conjunction with the construction of the Flower Port, the Flower Expo was held in Shunyi District, and the APEC meeting was held in 2014 in Yanxi Lake of Huairou District, thus forming the international center of conferences.The International Horticultural Expo will be held in Yanqing District in 2019, the year of 70th anniversary of the founding of China, and in 2022,Beijing and Zhangjiakou will jointly hold the Winter Olympic Games in order to facilitate the integration of Beijing-Tianjin-Hebei Region. Therefore, the big urban events have a profound impact on the development of Beijing regions (Fig. 1).

LA: This is Mr. Dobrick, the representative of West 8 and one of the designers of the master garden area in Beijing Expo 2019. I am wondering what is your design idea and concept of your work? And what makes it a special project comparing with the previous ones?

Christian: West 8 team led by our Design Director, Adriaan Geuze and I have designed the expo garden this time which can actually be experienced as a garden that intends to take visitors on a symbolic journey of life. The visitor will be disconnected from their surroundings and be led through a sequence of three rooms, each of which are connected by a narrow descending path. Each room has a unique atmosphere, uses different materials, plants, colours and most importantly has a different perspective. The journey of life ends in a moment of reflection. Different plants and different gardening designs bring different sensory experience to people. We think that horticulture is a birth of science; it is to make people take contact with nature, to experience nature. We also hope that these trees, shrubs, and soil can evoke visitors’emotional resonance through different design expressions. It is the seasonal changes. Visitors will feel differences in visiting these gardens in different seasons. Horticulture is a natural way for nature but at the same time, we also let the visitors know that nature will naturally be subject to the uncontrollable rhythm coming from the seasons. We hope visitors can understand this simple message. This is a very simple message, but if we succeed, we can feel particularly fortunate.

LA: Well. Mr. Dobrick, here is another question for you, have you encountered any problems in the process of design? And how did you handle them finally?

Christian: We have discussed a lot from the beginning about the deepest place of our garden design, which is designed at 9 meters below ground. This gives us a spectacular space experience when looking upwards, our team repeatedly communicated with organizers and found out that underground water level is just 5 meters underground, much higher than expected.In this case, we have to adjust our design in scale.Another point is that we have to take into account that some plant species are suitable for Beijing seedlings, but to take into account that the opening of the Beijing Expo 2019 will not allow enough time to wait for the growth of plants. In order to achieve the grand effect at the opening in time, the search for available nursery stock that we can use for our planting scheme is a big challenge we need to face. We hope our design is not only a beautiful vision, but also a project that can be landed. And we are equipped for that.

LA: Professor ZHENG, what is your perception about the issue that Mr.Dobrick faced with? And do you have any suggestions?

ZHENG: The design made by West 8 was finished as the creative gardens from foreign designers and the Committee hope that Mr.Dobrick can provide the best creative ideas, so they will not give more preparatory conditions. I’m looking forward to it and feel that there is not any problem. In addition, I have seen “the Garden of 10,000 Bridges” in the Xi’an Expo 2012 designed by West 8, and it not only has good effects but also has great in fluence. So I especially expect this garden can bring impressive experience once again.

LA: In the context of globalization, we also have more opportunities to carry out practices in different regions and different countries like the coming Beijing Expo 2019, it is a good opportunity. Then I am wondering what changes do you think the globalization has brought about in the landscape architecture and other related industries?

Christian: We believe that globalization has a very positive function.From the perspective of the landscape design development, in the past 200 years, the entire evolution of ‘garden’ is a process of exporting from East to West and vice versa. Everyone wants to have an exotic garden experience.In the process of globalization, a large number of American and European gardens are exported to the East. On the other hand, we believe that China not only needs an international garden experience, but also will return to their people’s wish to let visitors see the traditional Chinese gardens. From this point of view, we have begun to see that the development of Chinese gardens can attract the visitors’ sympathy. It is a very positive side. However, globalization has not only the good side but also the particularly dangerous side.

ZHENG: Globalization can promote extensive and profound exchanges among the professionals all over the world, so that they can know more about each other. And it is impossible that we can have dialogue with each other today without globalization. For example, the decorations with “Chinese Style” in the European gardens in 18 century have ever prevailed such as some Chinese pagodas and pavilions. But most of these were built by designers according to their imagination. In turn, theses Chinese gardens have also been in fluenced by European and American style, some of which are identified by guessing through secondary data and pictures, there is not thorough understanding of design concept. After entering the stage of globalization, China’s connection with European countries has become more closely which helps them have a deeper understanding of each other’s culture, instead of blindly worshiping and learning. The more what they can do is to understand each other’s design thoughts and sharing technologies, learn the better solutions of other countries and regions as well as face various challenges in contemporary development together, such as the climate change, the rising sea level and air pollution. When facing the issues of globalization which are formed gradually, each region is under the pressure from local development. Therefore, while constantly dealing with the globalization, the landscape architecture should also deal with this pressure, inherit the local ecological wisdom and then continually make changes to adapt urban development. Thus cities will be more livable and sustainable.

LA: Thank you. Both of you are outstanding designers in the frontier of landscape industry. In the face of today’s worldwide climate change and environmental degradation, could you please talk about how we can meet these challenges in landscape architecture practices to give expression to its ecological value?

Christian: It’s a very grandiose question. The impact of landscape architecture on globalization can be seen in both large-scale and small-scale.Take the example of energy saving and sustainable development in Europe. In Germany, the government encourages everyone to participate, and each installs solar panels on the roof, although the number of each installation is small, but the number of participation of all people involved formed a total energy saving impact that created a huge effect in the country level. In the Netherlands, there is relatively low level of small-scale individual participation, the government decided to implement large-scale projects to achieve green energy, built a wind farm in the off-shore North Sea. The proportion of green energy output of the Netherlands and Germany are the same. The same can happen for the landscape industry. We can invest in both large-scale and small-scale levels.There are also many knowledge and techniques that we can teach children.Let them know how to understand the impact of the growth of vegetable and plants on the environment, also the knowledge of water and other natural resources. If everyone can be educated in this industry, it will have an impact on the energy of the entire planet. And each individual can give impact to solve each of our problems.

7 West 8作品：鹿特丹中央火车站West 8’s project, Rotterdam Central Station

ZHENG: In my opinion, landscape architecture is actually a discipline reconciling the relationship between human intervention and natural environment, and its core meaning is to embody ecological value which is the essential question of our discipline. I agree with Dobrick’s looking at problems from different scales. Viewed from the large areas, any city is built the natural system. This kind of natural system is not absolute natural environment, but the one is transformed, recombined and readjusted by human beings after a long period. Then cities can be built in the natural system and form a kind of livable environment, for example, the construction of Beijing optimized the catchment of the West Hill, channeled water to the city and built landscape in that area. As a result, the landscape “Three Hills and Five Gardens” was formed, including Kunming Lake, Kunyu River and Long River.And there are also Shicha Lake, Central Lake, the South Lake and the North Lake, along with the east Tonghui River can make them connect with Tongzhou District which is the north end of the Beijing-Hangzhou Grand Canal. Actually, this kind of natural system dredged by the man-power can form livable environment for human. It is a relatively prosperous region which can transcend the changes in economic, population and time.Therefore, the environment through recombining and readjusting the nature, and human intervention is the embodiment of the greatest ecological value.But it has both advantages and disadvantages, for example, the Netherlands as a low country has a lot of dike paddy fields. From the point of today’s biology and ecology, the constant reclaiming land from the sea will affect biodiversity of the shallow coastal areas such as the benthos and the construction of tidal creek. But the dike paddy fields formed by reclamation indeed make the living environment more suitable and make the country more developing. A dynamic standard is used to measure this kind of ecological value, and the work of landscape architecture is to choose the way and time to properly intervene the nature which is also its advantage. As Ji Cheng mentioned, perfection is made by nature instead of human intervention.We can treat issues at a large scale which refers to the accomplishment of our work from the aspect of natural system. And in terms of small scale,we need to make research on the bene fits of city greenbelt aiming at the currently “urban diseases”,such as its value to people’s health, the bene fits on relieving the urban heat island effect, the in fluence on biodiversity, the diversion of flood from rainfall and surface runoff. These are all the tasks we need to do today, but I still want to say, no matter what kind of plots we will face in tasks, we must carry on our work on the basis of deep understanding of ecological system at the regional level so as to embody the special value of landscape architecture.

LA: Next, question, what’s your perception about the trends in the next decade for landscape architecture and related industries?

Christian: I would like to come back to the previous question when we talk about globalization. We think that the possible future development direction is a localized appeal and localized return. As local appeals, local residents hope that they will have a sense of place and return to history and culture. Similar to the food culture, my grandmother used certain recipes to prepare her dishes. We can all see that this is also re flected in the landscape design aspect. In fact, we can feel that in many projects, whether it will be government owned or privately owned, has begun to have this pursuit.

ZHENG: I also agree with the concept of recurrence mentioned by Mr. Dobrick, and I think this trend is hard to predict. However, on the whole, the landscape architecture industry is constantly to try to deal with the changes of the living environment in the socio-economic and urban development, and we have to find ways to cope with it if there are some bad changes. Each era has its own appropriate countermeasures,only when we are in that social background to find the most appropriate way, can it make our living environment better, which is why I think the trend is not easily predictable. Traditionally,Chinese people prefer to live in scenic cities. People always collect the natural water around the region and introduce them together through the city making them as the basis of urban development.In this way, citizens can build gardens in their own courtyard. They usually associate the hills in their gardens with the hills of the real mountain outside the city, and the water will be apparently connected with that of the outside, thus a whole view of nature is formed. At the same time, they will build some temples and ancient academies around shallow mountains, thus the community combined with nature and humanity, landscape and culture is gradually formed in and around the city.People’s life is inseparable from nature. In different periods, the development of social economic and population as well as urban and suburban areas all have different changes. However, I think landscape architecture has its value of existence and can constantly solve these problems, so that people are continuously close to nature and a kind of healthier lifestyle can be cultivated. Maybe this is the growing trend.

8 West 8作品：多伦多中央滨水区波浪甲板West 8’s project, Simco WaveDeck, Toronto

Christian: Professor ZHENG, What do you think the trend for the next ten years? I am so curious now. I agree that there are a lot of problems we have to solve, but what is the trend?

ZHENG: I think it’s really hard to predict it from the development of a decade. However, I also think, on the one hand, solving the “urban diseases”through the greenbelt system is a very important point. China is implementing the construction of sponge cities, the regeneration micro-parks and the construction of urban forest can reflect values of our landscape architecture and greenbelt system from the ecological perspective. On the other hand,at the social level, we have already started now to let more people participate in the greenbelt and parks.Now there is a term called “edible landscape” which refers to that how to make the edible landscape planting and science education well connect with the whole greenbelt system. I think in the next 10 years,China will certainly make progress on it and make it has more extensive mass foundation, not only the aesthetic foundation.

LA：The next question, from the perspective of education, how should landscape architecture industry be well prepared to cope with future challenges?

Christian: I think there’s a lot of our gardens try to achieve this goal: bring people together and appreciate nature. There should not be only serious approach about landscape education. You do not have to sit in the classroom all the time. This is also why we design this garden. We hope that education can make people experience and feel. Let people fall in love with the landscape, fall in love with nature. This approach has become more common in Europe, for example, the very common small community gardens in Europe, the surrounding residents will be involved in building, improving,managing their small plots of garden, I think this is a trend.

ZHENG: Indeed, the range of landscape architecture is constantly expanding, so it is a great challenge for education, just like the School of Landscape Architecture in Beijing Forestry University where I work, it is an education base with the longest history of more than 60 years since the establishment of new China, and it has the largest scale in the same disciplines around China. There are about 2,500 students studying landscape architecture, and we are constantly making adjustments. Landscape architecture ranks first in the discipline evaluation of Ministry of Education and is listed in the world-class discipline construction. This is a tremendous opportunity for our school. Our education system has a history of more than 60 years, and because of its changes,what was popular 10 years ago has ceased to prevail so far, similarly the current hot spots perhaps will not prevail in the next 10 years. But the classic contents transcend times. In my opinion, no matter how the landscape architecture discipline expands, it actually has its core, especially from the perspectives of undergraduate education, its core is to carry it forward and lay a food foundation,and then expand it to meet times requirements.In different periods, we will also make it connect with hot spots at home and abroad. At the same time, the students in our school have extensive practices such as the internships in Suzhou and Hangzhou. And we started it from 1960s for that a lot of classic things can transcend the time. We should inherit our traditions on the basis of the construction of Double World-Classes as well as make students’ horizon wider. We can first analyze the ecological, regional and urban problems from the perspectives of landscape architecture, and then view the problem of greenbelt system and gardens.This is a gradual process. At the same time, the connection of landscape architecture and society can lead people to participate in the garden design and pay attention to the social issues. In addition,we should also take the landscape architecture as carrier to inherit cultures and integrate all the functions of the garden so as to present more social, economic and humane values. This is exactly a direction of education.

9 West 8作品：纽约总督岛West 8’s project, Governors island

LA: As senior project manager of West 8, Dobrick has rich experience in oversea projects. These projects are highly local, which is rare and respectable for an international office like West 8. We believe West 8’s insights on working in different landscape culture would be very inspiring for all landscape architects.Can you show us a recent project you worked on? For example, Shanghai Xinhua Waterfront Park, how does it connect with local culture/surrounded landscape?

Christian: Xinhua Waterfront Park is a subproject of Huangpu Waterfront Revitalization Master plan begun by the Shanghai Municipal Government. Under one of the five riverside themes of the master plan,Xinhua Waterfront Park is situated in the cultural corridor section with the total area of 17 hm2. It is east of historic Minsheng Port at the Huangpu River and west of the waterfront shipyard, connecting important city streets. West 8’s design for Xinhua Waterfront Park will turn the east coast of Huangpu River to a integrated waterfront corridor with new city squares and waterfront public green space, complete with cycling tracks connecting to the city center. Amongst many design features, Baizi Square(Hundred-Sons Square) with a alcove-form seating element integrated with a retaining wall is inspired by the traditional symbol of a long-living turtle can be called a local cultured inspired feature. We imagined the gatherings of many young and old, the social coherence of the old days of Chinese culture while designing it (Fig. 2-4).

LA: When working on international projects, you have to switch from different culture. When you start a new project, do you have some skills to get involved quickly? And how do you get to know those cultures and lifestyles which few people know of?

Christian: History of a place teaches us the story. Story is often told by arts. Paintings, poetry,literature, and simple many of the folk’s story are at times some great sources for our inspiration.Most simple way is sometimes just to go to sit in an existing public garden or park to watch the locals. They will provide all we need to know about how people at a certain place connect with their nature. Very similar to a chef cook visiting another country will try and learn from the local dishes for inspirations and insights. We enjoy visiting the existing master gardens of a place before we start to make a new design for certain new projects.

LA: West 8 is good at creating unique and high recognizable objects. Does it belong to a part of design strategy?

10 West 8作品：纽约总督岛West 8’s project, Governors island

Christian: ‘Create an address’ is indeed a technique we do apply in urban and landscape design. It is what we truly believe what it matters in our profession. We create a place, a second nature, where people will come back to, where their memory lane can cling on to, where they feel engaged in, where they feel they belong to. No matter it will be a garden, or a street, square or a waterfront. It involves more different ways than just to create one-of-a kind objects. It is part of it, but not the only way, or say, all of it. There are different ways to reinforce the culture to which they belong. We look into the context while creating second nature. It is a logic based on utility and necessity. It gives an identity, but sometimes is also an expression of local context. That is why there is no formula in West 8 design. Every site is not the same because very site is unique (Fig. 5-8).

LA: West 8 has been working on more and more complex projects. For instance, the America Governors Island Mountain Park and it is much more than an urban park. Is it deliberately involved with large scale complex projects? Or is that a trend in this industry?

Christian: For already 30 years working on an international level from its start, West 8 developed projects all over the world in places such as Copenhagen,London, Moscow, New York, Madrid, Hamburg, Toronto, Amsterdam, Shanghai and Seoul. Some of them are sub-projects derived from large-scale urban planning. Many of the large scale projects are the result of groundbreaking entries in important international competitions. Recently won competitions include also West Kowloon Cultural District Park in Hong Kong. The Governors Island project was started by winning an international design competition in 2006 for the design of Governors Island Park—a 172-acre island in the New York Harbor (Fig. 9-10).

With our multi-disciplinary approach to complex design issues, West 8 has extensive experience in large-scale urban master planning and design,landscape interventions, waterfront projects, parks, squares and gardens. We also develop concepts and visions for large-scale planning issues that address global warming, urbanization and infrastructure. Many of these urban design and globalissues are dealt with most ef ficiently in a multi-disciplinary approach. Our of fice with a multi-national team is there very well equipped for and has been very successful with. Many of the nowadays scholars tend to classify our approach as ‘landscape urbanism’, a term we find we can resonate with. In fact our Madrid Río project, essentially a park design, has recently won the Veronica Rudge Green Prize for Urban Design offered by Harvard Design School.

LA: Finally, could you please talk about your expectations or wishes of this expo?

Christian: We have very high expectation of the gardens. We see that a lot of designers join the event and they are very talented people. We have seen previous great success of the show. At the same time, we also feel the pressure.First, we should realize the fair in the highest possible level. We have chosen to make the design. How to practice is the next question. I really hope to see 16 million viewers share their experiences together.

ZHENG: The Beijing Expo 2019 is on the 70th anniversary of founding of China and I believe that more people from all walks of life and all over the world will get together in Beijing visiting the expo, so I’m really looking forward to it. I remember that the last A1-level (the highest level) International Horticultural Expo was held in Kunming, China in 1999, which has promoted the rapid development of the landscape architecture industry. So that in the recent 20 years, any city which want to hold expos in different scale and levels will look back to the Kunming Expo 1999 and this is because it has played a leading role. I also hope that the A1- level International Horticultural Expo will be held in Beijing in the next 20 years, and it can not only bring great social effects, but also drive landscape architecture to develop so that it can lead the industry in the next 20 years once more!

Acknowledgement:Thank ZHANG Boya for her contribution to this interview during early preparation period.

Notes:

Fig. 1 is provided by ZHENG Xi; Fig.2-4 are provided by West 8；Fig. 5, 6 are photographed by Jeroen Musch; Fig. 7 is photographed by Luke Harley; Fig. 8 is photographed by Nicola Betts; Fig. 9, 10 are photographed by Timothy Schenk.