两国都有美好的未来

本刊记者 孙玲 翻译 王磊

专访印度驻华大使苏杰生博士

我们一定要拘泥于历史吗？印度和中国都在崛起。两国都有非常美好的未来。这需要用乐观和积极的态度来看待两国关系。

2010年4月1日，中印两国正式建交60周年。60年里，中印两国在政治、经济、文化等方面的交流与合作都得到了充分的拓展。作为新兴的发展中国家，中印两国的发展面临着哪些新的机遇？两国又将如何面对历史问题，在双边关系上迈出新的一步？为此，本刊记者专访了印度驻华大使苏杰生博士来解读中印关系。

中国报道：今年是中印建交60周年，中国将今年定为印度年，印度也将今年定为中国年。请问印度将举办哪些纪念活动？除经贸推广之外，在文化交流等方面，是否也有一些安排？

苏杰生：对我们来说这是非常重要的纪念日子。我们应该提醒年轻一代，中印两国过去一直并肩奋斗。这将加强我们今后就共同关心的问题一起合作的决心。目前，我们两国确实在做一些贸易推广的活动。这些活动将于今年4月至10月在印度17个城市举行。另外，我们还将在30多个城市举办文化交流方面的活动。会有更多的人能够分享这些盛事。

中国报道：目前，中国已经超过美国成为印度第一大贸易伙伴，印度也已成为中国第十大贸易伙伴。您如何总结60年来尤其近些年来两国的经贸往来和经济成就？苏杰生：我们可以通过贸易数字来看新阶段两国贸易之间最显著的变化。15年前，也就是1995年，双方贸易额只有12亿美元。在2000年也仍然只有30亿美元。但是到了2005年，这个数字已经增长到187亿美元。过去的两年是两国贸易额迅猛增长的时候。2008年达到了510亿美元。2009年即使遇到全球经济下滑，双边贸易额也达到了430亿美元。2010年前两个月，这个数据同比增长50%以上，也是非常喜人的。应该注意到的一点是，经济合作是新型印中关系最为核心的要素。因此，必须成功地做好两国贸易和相互投资，这是非常重要的。

中国报道：您曾经说，“中国企业在印度的表现要比印度企业在中国的表现活跃得多”，您能否对此做具体解释？

苏杰生：这里有两方面的问题。其一，中国企业要比印度企业活跃吗？我相信是的。但是与此关联的第二点是，印度的国内市场要比中国市场更开放吗？我相信答案依旧是肯定的。因此，一方面，印度的企业必须更加努力；另一方面，中国的市场应该更加积极和开放，特别是在信息技术、制药、农产品出口和技术服务等方面。对中国来说，这是长远的利益。

中国报道：中印建交60年，是思考和总结的契机。您曾说，要加强合作，就要为对方提供问题的解决办法。在您看来，中国市场还应该在哪些方面做出努力，以进一步促进两国经济领域合作？苏杰生：从根本上说，中国企业在为印度企业提供商机时应该有一个更加开放的心态。当然，印度市场更应该充分展示其竞争力。我可以向你保证我们今年就会做这件事。3月26日，我们办了一个大型信息技术领域的活动。今年晚些时候还要在制药方面办一个活动。我本人也已游说我们的商会派出工业代表团来参加这17项活动。

中国报道：中国和印度有许多共同点，如人口最多的国家，同为发展中国家，又是“金砖四国”中的两个重要成员。您如何看这些共同点在两国交往中所发挥的作用以及对今后的影响？

苏杰生：印度和中国有很多利益共同点。这体现在我们的双边关系和解决地区和全球问题等方面。我们有责任把这些共同点转化为双方的合作。如果是有重大意义的合作，无疑会带来更大的反响。

中国报道：在中国经济崛起的同时，印度国内对中国的快速发展表示了一些警惕，对此您有什么看法？您对中印两国增强彼此互信，有什么建议？

苏杰生：我的感觉是，事实上在普通印度人的心中，对中国取得的经济成就是非常羡慕的。对我们来说，确实有值得学习的地方。两国之间的互信将随着合作的不断加深而增强。

中国报道：作为电影大国，印度宝来坞电影多年来深受中国人喜爱，比如《大篷车》、《阿育王》、《宝来坞生死恋》。您是否喜欢看中国电影？

苏杰生：我并没有观赏很多中国电影。近期，我看了《建国大业》，非常吸引我。当然我也看过一些更有名的电影，比如《十面埋伏》和《天地英雄》。我还非常喜欢《赤壁》。

中国报道：中国一些专家也在为中印建交60年做梳理和总结，其中提到中印交往的一些历史教训，和两国需要跨越的历史难题。您如何看那些不愉快的往事？

苏杰生：我想反问的问题是：我们一定要拘泥于历史吗？印度和中国都在崛起。两国都有非常美好的未来。这需要用乐观和积极的态度来看待两国关系。

中国报道：中印边界问题还未能最后解决，对此，您期待一个什么样的结果？

苏杰生：这是一个复杂的问题，解决它还需要时间。

中国报道：您曾经在多个国家有驻外经历，和以往其他国家相比，在中国工作最大的特点或不同是什么？

苏杰生：我认为中国最迷人的部分就是其变革的广度和速度。中国也是唯一一个与印度面临类似挑战的国家。这确实非常特别。

中国报道：自从2009年8月上任以来，您去了中国许多地方，如上海、广州等。您觉得在中国生活和在印度生活的最大区别是什么？

苏杰生：对一个像我这样的人来说，中国的现代化和传统性是非常有趣的。这两者的共存对一个印度人来说可能更容易理解。在我的职业生涯里，我们一直在做的就是求同存异。我可以向你保证，印度和中国的共同之处要比你看第一眼得出的结论多得多。

Interview of Ambassador Dr. S. Jaishankar

China Report: This year is the 60th anniversary of the establishment of diplomatic relations between China and India. China sets this year as “India Year”,while India sets it as “China Year”. Would you please tell us something about the main celebration activities in India? What are they and how they go? Besides trade promotion,are there many arrangements on cultural exchange and other aspects?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: It is a very important anniversary for us. We should remind the younger generations that India and China have stood together in the past. That will strengthen our resolve to do so in future on issues of common concern. Yes, we are doing a number of trade promotion events.In fact, these will be in 17 cities between April and October, 2010. In addition,there will be cultural activities in more than 30 cities so that we enjoy a better appreciation at the popular level.post strong growth. It was $51 billion in 2008 and in 2009, despite the global economic downturn, was $43 billion. The first two months of 2010 have been very encouraging. There is more than 50%growth as compared to 2009. The point to note is that economic cooperation is a central element of the new India-China relations. It is, therefore, very important that the businesses of both countries must succeed when dealing with each other and investing in each other.

China Report: At present, China has surpassed America and become India’s biggest trade partner. India is China’s tenth biggest trade partner. Would you summarize the economic exchange and trade between the two countries and their economic achievements in the past 60 years and in recent years especially?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: The most visible change in this new phase of our ties can be seen in our trade figures. Fifteen years ago, in 1995, bilateral trade was only $1.2 billion. In 2000, it was still only $3 billion.By 2005, it had grown to $18.7 billion.The last two years have seen our trade

China Report: You said that the Chinese enterprises in India are more actively than the Indian enterprises in China. Would you please interpret this in detail?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: There are two issues.One, are Chinese enterprises more active than Indian? I believe they are. But linked to this is, two, is India’s domestic market more open than China’s? I also believe that is so. Therefore, on the one hand,Indian business must strive harder. On the other, China should be more encouraging and open, particularly when it comes to IT, pharmaceuticals, agro-exports and engineering services. This is in long term Chinese interest.

China Report: China and India have diplomatic relations for 60 years. It is a golden moment now to think and summarize.You said that to enhance cooperation is to find a solution for the counterpart’s problem.Thus the Chinese market should make more effort to promote the economic cooperation between the two countries. In your point of view, what should the Chinese market do?Dr. S. Jaishankar: Essentially, Chinese companies should approach opportunities relating to Indian companies with a more open mind. Of course, that is possible only when India markets its capabilities more aggressively. I assure you we will do that this year. We have a big IT event to do exactly that on 26th March. We will do a pharmaceutical event later in the year.I have personally lobbied our business chambers to send industry-focused delegations to the 17 events we will be holding.for China’s speedy development. What’s your point of view about this? What’s your advice for China and India to deepen the mutual trust in the future?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: My sense is that there is actually considerable admiration in the mind of the average Indian when it comes to China’s economic achievements. For us, there are lessons to be learnt. Mutual trust will grow as habits of cooperation develop.

China Report: China and India share many things in common. How would you judge the roles those in common play in the exchanges between the two countries and their effects in the future?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: India and China have a strong convergence of interests. This can be reflected in our bilateral relations

China Report: Under the mechanism called BRICs, in what fields should the two countries further their cooperation, and what roles should they play on the international stage?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: We should await the Summit next month to assess the direction of BRICs cooperation.

and in our approach to regional and global issues. It is upto us to translate that convergence into cooperation. If that happens in a significant way, obviously, it will have much bigger repercussions.

China Report: India has a big motion picture industry. For many years, the Chinese like the Bollywood movies like Caravan and Devdas.Do you like Chinese movies? Can you name some?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: I haven’t seen as many Chinese films as I should. Recently, I watched the ‘Founding of the Republic’. It was very engrossing. Of course, some of the more famous films like ‘House of the Flying Daggers’ and ‘Warriors of Heaven and Earth’ have been seen by me. I also like ‘Red Cliff ’ very much.

China Report: As the Chinese economy taking off, some Indian people are on alert

China Report: Some Chinese experts are now summarizing Sino-India diplomatic relations at the 60th anniversary of its establishment. They mentioned about some historical lessons and also some historical

obstacles which need to be overcome in the exchanges between the two countries. How do you think about these unhappy stories in history?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: My counter question would be: Should we always remain prisoners of history? India and China are both rising. They have a great future ahead. That calls for optimism and a positive approach to our relationship.

China Report: Some border disputes between China and India have not yet been resolved. What results do you expect?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: It is a complicated issue and will naturally require time.

China Report: You have overseas work experience in many countries. Compare to other countries, what are the peculiarity and difference for you to work in China?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: I think the most fascinating part of China is the scale and speed of change that I see around me. It is also the only country whose challenges are comparable to those we face in India. That makes it very special.

China Report: Since you took office in August 2009, you have been to many places in China, like Shanghai and Guangzhou. Can you tell us your impression on China? What is the biggest difference between living in China and in India?

Dr. S. Jaishankar: Both the modernity and the heritage of China are of great interest to a person like me. Their co-existence is probably better understood by an Indian.In my profession, it is not that we ignore differences. But we constantly search for common ground. I can assure you that India and China have much more in common than you might assume at first glance.